You’ve probably heard the story of the priest who preached the same sermon every Sunday.
After a few weeks, some of the parishioners got tired of it and demanded an explanation.
“Do you really want to know why I’m repeating myself at every service?” asked the priest. The crowd nodded.
“I will continue to tell you the same thing over and over again, until you take it to heart and do something with it.
If you don’t change your behavior, I don’t see any reason for me to change my sermon.”
Well, I may be the son of a minister, but as a writer, I can certainly relate to this priest. When it comes to setting rates, I sometimes feel I’m talking to a sea of people with frighteningly short memories and no backbone.
Watch me as I go to my pulpit and address the crowd:
Read the rest of this story in my new book. Click here for the paperback version, and click here for a Kindle download.
Click on the cover to access the website and get a sneak peek.
Spot on – as usual.
Thank you, Tom. Thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings!
Paul,
I suspect that the people who bother to read your posts are probably not the one’s who “should”. This sort of problem has been around for years.
People who like to drink, open up bars. Unfortunately, they don’t know how to run a business. Eventually they either get someone in who knows how to run the bar for them or they sell the bar to someone, who may or may not know how to run a business and the cycle is repeated.
The problem regarding low-balling is that the problem is far bigger than anyone realizes. The concept of outsourcing in the United States as a way of getting labor to do tasks far cheaper than can be done in country is huge. Many of these offshore concerns now how have plenty of faces in the U.S. and U.K., to help make things that much easier for the companies who by nature are only looking to increase profits.
I used to book bands into smallish clubs in Northern California back in the 1980’s and the going rate ran around $250 -$400 a night for the bands – gear and all. Interestingly enough, that rate may actually have slipped a little over 25 – 30 years, while competition is even fiercer.
In voice over though, the lowballing situation is even worse, because few if any talent seem to understand the intricacies of voice over, let alone the history. As far as being business people, I’d say that some of the worst one’s I’ve ever seen are out there boasting about their v.o. businesses.
The talent fee that 10 years ago was $500, now being whittled to $250 is the tip of the iceberg. 10 years ago the client would have had to pay a casting fee to get auditions. They would have paid a studio/ engineer fee of $200 per hour to record, and additional fees for editing, printing out scripts, copying audio files, etc. They probably would have had a director.
Thus,the job they are now offering you for $250, just a mere 10 years ago would have cost them closer to $1,000. SO, $250 isn’t half of what you should be getting, it’s 1/4th, when you take into account the number of paid positions and service functions you are displacing.
More importantly, how has the structure changed so much that projects are now paying quite literally in many cases 10 cents on the dollar for production. Where is that other 90 cents going?
Certainly this doesn’t exist within the Union world, although you are certainly seeing a large percentage of auditions that were performed under union contracts a year or two ago, now being sent as non-union “buyouts”, with fees a fraction of those they might have paid through equivalent SAG/ AFTRA agreements. Additionally, many union jobs that paid actors scale and a half or double scale now only pay scale. We’ve also seen adjustments to contracts that don’t seem to keep pace with the kinds of adjustments that the unions went on strike for 10 or so years ago. In fact, a new multimedia contract designed to entie new union productions in gaming has only allowed for existing projects to hire less actors and pay less.
While this all may be a trend, undercutting does the actor no good. Being the “most affordable” develops a very breakable bond. It’s like the old addage says “I’m losing a dollar on every sale, but I’m making it up in volume.”
Thanks Paul, for always being a voice of reason and for your compelling writing that always begs people to think. Maybe after the mad rush for every Tom, Dick and Harry to get into v.o. is over, these people who made the mad dash to do v.o. because someone told them they had a nice voice, will walk over to their nearest pub and say “Now, being a bar owner, there’s something I can really do!”
I’ve been known to preach to the choir, J.S. I love to sing and I can’t keep my big mouth shut.
You’re absolutely right: lower rates and lowballing these low rates is part of an ongoing disturbing trend. Everybody wants to get more for less, and preferably for free.
Voice talent has dropped the ball by throwing in long editing sessions at no cost, and by not charging for the use of their studio. Once these things become the norm, it’s hard to go back, and we only have ourselves to blame.
There used to be a logical solution: go Union. But as your rightly bring up: the unions aren’t what they used to be, and more and more jobs are going to non-union talent. I wonder why…
What to do? It ultimately comes down to personal responsibility. As I said in my article: if we are part of the problem, we can be part of the solution. It all starts with creating awareness. That’s one of the reasons why I keep hammering and jammering.
Your comment about low-ball clients being high maintenance truly resonated with me. A while ago, against my better judgment, I joined forces with a client for less than my going rate per spot, because he promised on-going work. Well, yes, I did get a few spots out of it, but the time I spent revising the audio for nit-picky script changes (revisions apparently being included in the initial fee) far outweighed the benefit of some guaranteed work.
Parting ways with this client was very freeing…
Thanks for sharing your experience, Kristin. Unfortunately, many freelance colleagues can relate to your story. I’m sure I will also get a couple of comments saying: “It’s a free market. There’s no shame in accepting a lower rate. Any work is better than no work and it beats flipping burgers.”
Thank you Paul… the voice of sanity should be your new tag I think.
Hopefully a few voice seekers as well as some voice artists will inwardly digest and act on this advice.
I just quoted for a big e-learning company – lower than my normal rate because of it being potentially ongoing, but was asked to lower it further because the client had other quotes that were less than a third of what I was asking.
I politely said that I was not prepared to go any lower… but that if the client changed their mind, I would be happy to work with them and would be as flexible as possible. So head held high… and principals intact.
Your advice has just reinforced that my instincts were right… we shall see what happens next.
Keep blogging.
H
Good for you, Helen! Some e-Learning companies have a lot to learn. I have had clients come back to me to redo voice-over sessions that were poorly recorded by bargain basement talent. Going cheap can be expensive! Keep your head up high, Helen!
This morning, I received a solicitation to become part of a marketing agency’s talent pool. The “voiceover reseller” included a mini-rate card in their e-mail with what I thought were uber-discounted rates, significantly less than what I have on my card. I politely replied by first thanking them for the invitation to swim in their pool then provided my rates for the same work and asked them to contact me should they have any questions. I haven’t heard from them and probably won’t.
Thanks for a great post, Paul.
-JCD
It sounded more like they wanted you to drown in their pool, Christopher. Low rates will never keep you afloat!
What can I say… you took the words out of my mouth (and made them more eloquent and less vitriolic). And we still have to keep repeating and repeating and… ad infinitum. I have to find a way to repost this on Elance, GoDesk, Guru, Thumbtack, Fiver, Craigslist and all the forums for the P2P sites. Economic crisis or not, there are voice artists who are hamstringing themselves for the future with this “cheap, but make it up in volume” attitude. And of course, they will be the first to hear the lowball VOs somewhere on the net or in a game and say how horrible that voice over person was. And so it goes…
Keep shouting, Paul. I’m getting a sore throat from it in my little corner of the world. I need the help.
Corson
I will gladly lend my voice to the cause, Corson.
The other side of the coin is that we have freelancers in low-wage countries responding to what to us seem bargain basement rate jobs. To them, earning $250 might mean food on the table for two or three months.
Because I can do my voice-over work from anywhere in the world with a reliable internet connection, perhaps I should consider moving to some sunny, well-connected island.
Hi there!
You can do it! I mean pack up and move to somewhere that the sun shines all the time and where, hopefully, the cost is less.
What happened in my case is that, after moving to Fortaleza, Brazil, on the northeast coast in 2004, the costs have moved up to the point where it’s as expensive here is it is in North America.
The reasons I’m still here are several and some have to do with the fact I’m married to a Brazilian lady and my cost of living in terms of real estate is very low compared to others here…good luck as much as good management.
But YOU can do it and I would suggest that if it’s possible to pack up your personal stuff and go, that you should.
The expat life is great! But choose carefully.
Andy
I can totally relate to that, Andy. The internet has made it so much easier to make the move. Nevertheless, moving to a different country and culture is a big deal. Sometimes I wish I could be with my family in The Netherlands, when days are dark and and they could use my support. But overall, I’m glad I’m here in Pennsylvania.
Here you go Corson!
forums.voice123.com
You see, all the other sites you mention do not have forums, or if they do, they are useless. LOL
I did like this Paul. Thank you.
A forum is only useful to the extent that the ones preaching on that platform are listened to.
Ultimately, a company that does not listen to their customers and does not take their suggestions to heart, is operating from an ivory tower.
Paul – Especially, the self respect part!
J.S wrote: “I suspect that the people who bother to read your posts are probably not the one’s who ‘should’.”
I agree.
Actions can be taken.
On a couple of the p2p’s, when I can determine who has submitted a lowball bid, I have been known to send an email to the perp, politely informing he or she of much of what you have said here.
When I see low-price expectations from voice-seekers and the subsequent lowball bids, I go ahead and submit a generic demo and the appropriate higher fee.
The lowballers fool themselves into thinking they are “voiceover artists”. To that I say: Set a competitive price and see how many jobs you get.
Did you receive any comments back from the lowballers, Mark?
What would you say to someone telling you:
“I do this for a hobby. It’s just beer money. I’m not in it for the big bucks. It’s nice to have an extra $50 in my pocket that I didn’t have before. You can’t tell me what to charge.”
No responses from the few lowballers I’d emailed.
I’d have to know a lot more before I could respond. Let’s hear those $50.00 jobs, the quality of the read and the production. What are the products? How is the production being used?
In one of the groups, I saw an article written by a lowball voiceover provider, in which he argued that he provides a voiceover service for the voice-seekers who do not demand “professional” voiceover. He has a roster of “voiceover artists” who are happy to work for minimum-wage rates.
I would think that, accordingly, these beer-money voices would never be considered for “real” voiceover projects, and likely these voices know that.
I like Mike’s response to the hobbyist: “…don’t put yourself out there as a professional.”
I guess this two-tiered division is the reality now. I think the pro’s aren’t concerned with $50 payments and the voice-seekers offering those payments.
So, it seems the problem is when a real pro, a person whom we all would say the read and audio quality is “good”, is undercutting prices. The pro could not make the “beer money” claim.
I agree with H. Corson Bremer’s comment about repetition of the anti-lowball message. Awareness and repetition.
But how can the lowballers be reminded that their practices
affect all of us? As J.S. said, the discounters aren’t paying attention to group posts, if they are even members of the industry groups.
If the identity of a person who underbids is known or can be found, why not copy some points from Paul’s post and the comments here and dash off an email to the perpetrator? Imagine receiving 4-5 such emails from your peers.
Many of us seem to have the time to read the forums, to comment in the groups, to write blog articles and otherwise be immersed in social networking. Sending an email from a template only takes a minute. It’s a start.
Thanks for the update, Mark. What you’re really asking for from lowballers is professionalism. I couldn’t agree more and yet, I realize that some folks are happy with an extra 50 bucks in their pocket. They had some fun talking into a microphone and they’re even getting paid to do it! They don’t think about the impact of their pricing on the people that need to pay the mortgage every month out of their voice-over income.
Our profession is not the only one that has to deal with these issues. My wife teaches flute and piano. She’s battling the folks that advertise music lessons at a third of her rate. Most of the time, these ‘teachers’ don’t need to make a living that way. They’re just happy to have a few students while their husbands are the breadwinners.
Hi Paul, you hit the nail RIGHT in the head. I’ve been fighting against low balling since my days of been a wedding photographer and now that I’m a voice over artist I can’t stop fighting against it. This blog article was like the post card that has just the right love message you want to send to your girl, but you just don’t know how to say it. You said it the best it could be said. Thanks Paul for posting this. Greetings from Ponce, Puerto Rico.
Hi Pablo, it’s nice to know that my views on lowballing are shared in different parts of the world. In all the years that I’ve been vocal about this issue, I’ve never heard a colleague say: “I’m happy to do more for less. Bring it on!”
Paul,
Eloquently spoken, as always. If you don’t mind, I’m going to post a link back to this over in one of the on-going LinkedIn discussions where a vendor has posted “Im new to the group and have VOLUME WORK @ LOW RATES…” In other words, $10/per script for IVR work. (No, we have no idea what he means by ‘script’ – he’s been asked multiple times with no response.)
It’s amazing how many people have done their best Arnold Horshack impersonation – even though there’s been a number of pro’s saying what you said here.
…and has far as what to say to the hobbyist? How about:
“Great. Do it for a hobby and maybe someday you’ll decide to turn it into a paying gig. Until then though, don’t put yourself out there as a professional. Do it for friends and family who’ll pay you beer money.”
🙂
-Mike
Well put Mike. In most other professions, amateurs wouldn’t get a foot in the door. In the weird world of voiceovers, anyone can pretend to be a pro. No questions asked.
This brings up the question again of what impact, if any, SaVoa has? I’d like to be able to join, as it would be beneficial to have some way of distinguishing ourselves from the lowballing amateurs – but if clients (voice-seekers) don’t see the benefit of hiring a SaVoa member, I wonder if there’s a benefit at all? I’d be interested to hear others’ thoughts!
SaVoa (Society of Accredited Voice Over Artists ), states in STANDARDS OF BUSINESS CONDUCT B, point 2:
“Although SaVoa may publish or comment on industry standards and guidelines with respect to customary rates for voice over services, SaVoa members acknowledge that any such rates are provided solely as an aid to quoting a fair price and neither SaVoa nor its members shall collude to set or attempt to set minimum rates for voice over services. In establishing rates, voice over artists are asked to take into consideration:
– the level of their voice over skills;
– their own availability;
– details and complexity of the specific voice over project (including multiple reads, pickups, or post-production);
– the client’s budget;
– the time frame allowed for completion of the job;
– the expected market (broadcast and non-broadcast);
– rates paid for their similar voice over services by similar clients in similar markets.”
Thanks, Paul. I can appreciate standards being set and/or encouraged, but the bigger question is if whether these standards mean anything to clients. Obviously, there are plenty of clients out there who DON’T care – otherwise there would be no necessity for your blog post – so do you think SaVoa’s guidelines matter to them, and if not, is there a verifiable, quanitifable benefit to SaVoa? Again, I like the idea of SaVoa and would happy and honoured to join…but like every purchase one makes, there needs to be a benefit.
It’s impossible to appreciate something one is not aware of. As long as the SaVoa seal is not as respected and recognized as the Good Housekeeping seal of the voice-over world, it will only marginally matter to those in the know.
Even if SaVoa standards would be widely accepted, having that seal on a website doesn’t guarantee a client that a SaVoa member has the perfect voice for the job.
To me, SaVoa has greater value as a professional organization in a community that lacks standards; a community where amateurs are allowed to compete at the same level as seasoned pros.
SaVoa has reinvigorated the discussion about what it really means to be a voice-over professional. For the first time, we have a yardstick of standards against which we can measure someone’s level of professionalism. It’s not perfect, but it’s a start.
Found this choice quote about the dark art of pricing on http://www.jessicahische.is/obsessedwiththeinternet/andhelpingyougetpaid/the-dark-art-of-pricing
“How do you know if you priced right?
IF THE CLIENT WRITES BACK IMMEDIATELY and says “These numbers look great! We’ll send along a contract for you to go over in a few days!” It probably means your prices are too low. If they write back and try to negotiate you down a little bit, you were probably pretty spot on, and if they write back and say that this is well beyond their budget, you get to decide whether or not you want to figure out a way to work within their budget or whether you want to walk away and take one for the team. ”
Similar deal I think. My all-time favourite is “If you think it’s expensive to hire a professional, wait until you hire an amateur…”
Those are great quotes, Ciaran. A while back, I wrote a trilogy about pricing for this blog. The first installment is called “The Power of Pricing“.
In my experience, people quote too quickly without asking the right questions. Most online job boards explicitly forbid members to contact clients directly. Pricing becomes a game of shooting darts in the dark.
Hi again Paul
I am interested to know why so few VO artists appear to be Union members – I know that union membership in the US can make things very complicated for employers as well as for the members themselves – but is it not worth the trouble if union membership is viewed as a mark of ‘professionalism’ I wonder?
I am an Equity member – when I started in the business, it was a closed shop in the UK – you just couldn’t work in theatre, television, radio, cinema or recording studio without Equity membership – you had to prove 40 weeks’ professional work as a provisional member before full membership was granted. Union rates were the norm – any negotiations began within those perameters, you were offered the job and the rate was included in the job offer – and there seemed to be a built in upward sliding scale depending on your experience and the size of the job as well – insert nostalgic intake of breath and soulful look of longing here!
Now I know that we can’t go back to those halcyon days – but it does occur to me that with all the ‘so called’ professional groups on LinkedIn and other forums, and with the P2P sites offering the appearance of professionalism – where we know that the many ‘pin money jobs’ are being listed and being snapped up by ‘pin money amateur talent’ that we are not all operating in the same playing field!
I know that membership of VAU and/or SaVOA gives an indication of quality, but surely union membership indicates that the member is a professional not an amateur (and of course the unions also offer guidelines on rates, buyouts, licensing, residuals etc – and also legal advice and support).
Reading between the lines on posts on many forums, I suspect that one of the problems in the US at any rate, is that employers will not hire union members, is this a correct assumption I wonder?
Thoughts anyone?
Helen
You’re opening up an interesting can of worms here, to say the least. The wonderful world of Voice Overs is very much like the unruly Wild West. Anyone can hang up a sign, create a website and print free business cards.
Painters go to art academies and get an apprenticeship with a Master. Musicians study hard at conservatories and enter competitions. Actors get years of professional training before they become waiters. Voice Talent simply buy a membership to an online casting service and voilà: they’re in business. No one’s asking for credentials, qualifications or proven experience. If they’d be auditioning for a Broadway show, they wouldn’t even get a foot in the door.
One of my colleagues once worked for a VO training company that offered entry level courses. At the end of a very basic introductory program, the students recorded a demo (included in the tuition fee) and they were supposedly ready to pimp their pipes. It was my colleague’s job to doctor these demos to make these obvious amateurs sound like had an ounce of talent. In the States people call that “shining shit”. My only consolation is that lightweight objects usually surface quickly.
Would a SaVoa or VAU (Voice Artists United) membership make a difference? I wouldn’t vow for that. No client ever asked me: “So, are you a SaVoa member”? I’ve never received an audition request saying: “For SaVoa members only.” Besides, they stay out of the rate debate. SaVoa standards have been criticized and praised, and I don’t think they want to stir the pot by publishing recommended rates. (see my answer to Matt below)
Can the Unions save the day? Wouldn’t that be something! I have a feeling that most self-proclaimed voice overs don’t yet qualify for a SAG or AFTRA membership. The market has caught on to the fact that they can get the same work done by a non-union member at a much lower rate. It’s also a matter of mentality. For some Americans, Unions are synonymous with Intervention, Regulation and Socialism (and they don’t know the difference between socialism and communism).
The Washington Examiner writes on 10/5/2011:
“Newly elected Republicans in statehouses across the country have worked to strip power from public labor unions that have long been reliable Democratic Party allies that provide not just money but armies of campaign volunteers.”
At the end of the day, it comes down to you and me, Helen. Lowballers and people asking for a reasonable, fair fee, have one thing in common: they know exactly what they’re worth.
I read with great interest you article and more importantly the comments posted. I have to say that there have been some ridiculously low bids being offered on some of these ‘talent pool’ sites. The problem before were the low ballers and the clients who offered these tiny budgets. But now, there is at least one talent pool site that is allowing voice seekers to post projects that offer and hourly rate! I saw VO one listed today for $2 – $8 per hour! How are we as VO artists going to try to turn the bidding process around when, the platform itself is exacerbating the problem by allowing what I consider to be insultingly low rates to become the norm?
There are players and enablers. Some of the sites you refer to are clearly enablers. The excuse they come up with time and again is that they’re just a “neutral funnel” that’s there to help us find work. Really?
To me it’s crystal clear that these sites benefit voice seekers more than they do voice talent. Because of their share of the market, they have become trend setters and power pricers.
Ultimately though, we have to look at our own voice-over community. It is our job as professionals, to educate our clients and manage their expectations. If we are willing to do a $1000 job for $250, that’s what the new norm will be. In the end, we only have ourselves to blame.
Lowballing is not only a sign of desperation, ignorance and amateurism. It’s professional suicide.
You’re wasting your breathe…ahhhhhhhh…e-ink!
You’re wasting your breathe…ahhhhhhhh…e-ink!
You’re wasting your breathe…ahhhhhhhh…e-ink!
You’re wasting your breathe…ahhhhhhhh…e-ink!
You’re wasting your breathe…ahhhhhhhh…e-ink!
You’re wasting your breathe…ahhhhhhhh…e-ink!
You’re wasting your breathe…ahhhhhhhh…e-ink!
You’re wasting your breathe…ahhhhhhhh…e-ink!
You’re wasting your breathe…ahhhhhhhh…e-ink!
You’re wasting your breathe…ahhhhhhhh…e-ink!
🙁
Did someone press the repeat button? 🙂 I guess repetition is the mother of skill.
What was that Dale Carnegie quote again?
Now, did I make myself clear, or do I need to repeat that?
I always thought that was an invention of the US Army in the manual of how to teach really thick-headed, stupid, grunts! No offense to vets intended. 🙂
Hi Paul,
I for one, do not get tired of this discussion. Especially when it is full of eloquently stated points of view, such as this thread!!
The one point that I find confusing and a little irritating is that when the arguement agaist lowballing is made there is rarely, if ever, a suggested rate structure for their fellow voice talents to follow.
As you stated in your article, there are several factors that need to be taken into consideration when coming up with a “rate card”, but since most people have different income needs/requirements that still leaves the door wide open for significant swings in pricing between vo talents.
Of course there are a few sample rate cards avaiable on sites like Edge Studios’, but without more “standardized” pricing in the industry, I don’t see much change happening.
Thanks again, Paul for your article and for stirring the pot up!!
Jan
If you go to the resources section of my blog, you’ll see a link to the voiceoverresourceguide.com. There you’ll find the union rate information you’re looking for. Many non-union members use that as a yardstick.
All of us have to come up with our own price floor or a minimum wage. If we were to sell below that price, we’d incur a loss. You won’t find that highly individual number on a rate sheet.
Freelanceswitch.com has developed a handy rate calculator. This calculator will give you an ideal hourly rate and a break even hourly rate. Here’s the trouble: rates in our industry are often determined per project, per word or per minute.
However, it is still very useful to be clear on how much exactly needs to come in every month, in order to break even. As I said in my article: most colleagues have no clue. To me, that’s an indication that they’re treating voice-over work as a hobby.
Thank you for using the UNION RATES as the basis for your non-union rates. The union worked for years to get rates where they are and IMO, that’s a great starting point for all talent hoping to get in the game.
They need to plus the UNION RATE to take into consideration the H&R benefits and the SSI and other tax contributions that comprise the real base rate.
After doing that, they need to PLUS the base union rate for the studio cost of recording the piece, editing time, file renaming, music selection, cost of selected music, and final production fees.
When a voice buy balks at a fair price the talent must find the courage to stand their ground. I know that can be really challenging when you’re working to pay the light bill, but talent needs to do it.
For instance, file naming: I charge for it based on the number of files being renamed. It is a hideously manual, time consuming and error prone task. I automated the job with a script that I wrote and other software that I purchased. I’ll cut that fee to give the client the sense that they talked me down in price, but it is never free.
I’ll also cut the fee for recording the session itself – after all – I’m there being paid for THE job, so I have some flexibility because the narration is where the money usually is. I never cut it beyond a 40% discount because my of the quality of my audio chain.
I only reduce fees on things that really do not cost me much time or money AND nothing I do is ever completely free. I even charge for my consult time. If they do not know how to do it and call me, they’re going to pay for it. I usually discount that deeply if the work actually comes to me. I cannot begin tell you how many times people have asked me how to do something and then gave the work to someone else who charged less than me but didn’t know how to do it.
Everything that I do costs money, always.
Hear, hear!
The Dutch have a saying that says: “Voor niets gaat de zon op,” meaning: only the sun rises for free.
Every aspiring voice artist should take a page from your book and refer to it often.
If we don’t see the added value of what we have to offer, we can’t expect our clients to see it either.
Maybe the focus should be not on the lowballers, but on client education.
Steve Hammill talked about the charges for his various services. Chances are, the majority of the voice-seekers have no idea what is involved in the vo process. They just want that recorded voice. You tell the client the services and the fees, they panic and go find that cheapo voice.
Information about vo fees can be found on the web. But it’s scattered around. How is the client to know it’s accurate information? And what voice-seeker is going to make the effort? Especially if the client is coming through a p2p, which, in the voice-seekers mind, is the all-knowing all-seeing voice-casting expert.
A major, ongoing *voice-seeker* education campaign is necessary. Voice-seekers need unbiased information about what to expect regarding audio quality, pricing, auditions and so on. A one-stop, trustworthy website that provides concise articles in layman’s terms.
With such information available, vo talents could then include the link to the info in every business email. That is, the vo people who dare to have the client learn what to look for in order to evaluate the talent on all levels.
?I have suggested this idea to Savoa, which would seem a likely site for the endeavor.
I’m sure there are some ill-informed buyers, Mark, but they don’t have successful businesses. If they’re successful, they will have called the local recording studio and asked how much it’s going to cost them to have a VO recorded, edited, chopped into named segments, and have music head and tails. Okay, they won’t know what heads & tails means until they talk with the studio…but they’ll know how much the gig is worth before they begin any serious negotiations. You can take that to the bank.
Talent needs to be as smart as the people they’re doing business with AND most need hormone supplements to grow a pair.
I just got an email about those hormone supplements, Steve. Have you tried them and can it turn a lowballer into a highballer? 🙂
Never had much use for ’em, Paul. I carry mine around in a two wheeled wheelbarrow. 🙂
Regardless of how high a pedestal we wish to place our personal craft upon, there are those getting into voice over who are staring down the barrrel of a $43.88 USB microphone and saying, it’s this or Burger King.
Many view voice over as being far less exhaustive than working for minimum wage and thus look upon anything above $10 per hour being a good return. Any attempt to try and dissuade them from this thinking generally doesn’t work. In fact, I was directed to an article that seemed to indicate that the more people were told that this behavior was not in their best interests, the more reasons they formed for clinging fast.
Voice over is in the process of being marginalized and as I explained earlier, far worse than most wish to give it credit for.
It would seem that for the most part, v.o. is like the weather, everyone talsk about it, but nobody seems to be doing anything about it.
I’ve been shooting off warning flares for a very long time regarding the v.o. profession. Sadly, not only hasn’t it done much good for the profession or individuals, but I’m fairly certain that it has actually hurt me professionally, especially when I’ve had v.o. forums turn into angry mobs hurling all sorts of things at me; and usually in the name of brotherhood and support.
Who knows if it’s too late? With so many struggling to put food on the table and 35% of all home mortgages now under water, perhaps the best thing we can do is to have people stop posturing online. Let’s give up the posting of the jobs and auditions and the fluff and the pretense and tell the truth. Let’s stone the v.o. teachers until they stop promoting their classes with lines like “How to make the big money in voice over” or words to that effect.
Let’s quit being the sugar that attracts the flies. Let’s be a tad less cordial to those looking for admission to the v.o. pearly gates. Let’s stop pretending that the streets of voice over flow with milk and honey.
And, in an industry with zero accountability let’s stop blaming those who are unaccountable.
Like the scorpion said when it stung the frog, in gratitude for the frog’s having brought the scorpion safely to shore, “I’m not a bad guy, it’s just my nature.”
Well said, JS, as far as it goes. I wouldn’t be nearly as kind. 99% of the VO wannabes are fools utterly devoid of gray matter. 99% of the “VO teachers” never made it themselves, are complete has-beens, or are snake oil sales people; most have a hidden desire to eviscerate their future competition and the rest of them are totally devoid of morals. 99% of the rest of us are stuck playing the nicey, nicey game afraid to call a spade a spade.
PS – Tomorrow’s my day to get out of the wrong side of the bed.
Hear hear! It is the emptiest vessel that makes the most noise!
I so agree about the damage done by the persistent self congratulatory and self aggrandising postings that are flooding the internet – what is gained by blowing your own trumpet to fellow professionals? Nothing at all – it just leaves a sour taste in the mouth particularly when the person reading the posting may have auditioned unsuccessfully for the same job – hardly the behaviour of ‘a community’! Much better to discretely market yourself to people who may actually employ you – and let others sing your praises if they feel moved to do so.
All that these ‘didn’t I do well’ postings do is feed the ego of the person posting and offer false hope to the hopeless. This is just as damaging to the ‘jobbing voice actor’ as the false hopes constantly being promulgated by many of the online casting sites as well as the VO trainers who persist in selling the dream.
Aspiration is good – and there are some great role models – professionals who are willing to share their knowledge and experience – who are trying to ensure fair and equitable rates of pay and high production standards, but their voices are being shouted down by the chatter of the ‘get rich quick’ brigade who are willing to exploit and manipulate whoever is willing to listen – and are incidentally nicely lining their own pockets.
This would EXACTLY be MY point Helen & Steve. You are hitting the nail on the head.
I used to offer help, advice, write articles to further assist the VO community out of the goodness of my own heart. And guess what? I STOPPED!!
My manager told me one day to stop my assistance/advice to others and only use my experience, wisdom and business savvy to work my own camp. I did this and haven’t been stressed over what is happening in the economy and even worse what seems to be happening to the VO industry.
I now covet the lessons I’ve learned over my time in business and don’t plan to disclose any of it unless each individual newbie wants to spend a ridiculous amount of money (money they certainly do not have) to find out what it REALLY takes to do well in this business and not fall into any of these traps that come up like this discussion. (Gosh, doesn’t that sound evil!?)
I have “the askers” every day to muddle through in my inbox and I have chosen to simply ignore them. No more coddling….no more expert advice….no more encouraging people, except my real friends. I concentrate on my work, continue to be agressive in niche marketing, and hone my business down to an agile mountain goat that has a can do attitude of a freight train.
I empower my own sphere of influence by hitting the DELETE button on postings on P2P sites when that fee isn’t way up there. I’ve stopped the complaining and employ laser focus on only those avenues and postings that are acceptable and offer me great return on my efforts. You’ve no doubt heard: “lead others by example (by doing)”, not by talking about it.
If every one of the professionals just did the same thing, I think they’d do a hell of a lot better. Union or Non Union. I do both….unions can be a problem and a solution, unfortunately just like Congress, they are all “f’d” up!
Excuse the rant, I’ve been bottled up for about a year now and could go on for days about this. To be quite honest,though, this strategy will work for you and take the negativity away from your thought process which in turn leads to more success.
You are excused, Jennifer. I feel your frustration. That’s why I started this article with a story about a priest having to repeat his sermons every Sunday. Sometimes blogging feels that way, and I wonder: does what I write really make a difference? The people who really need to read this rather bury their heads in the quicksand of their own ignorance.
At the same time I receive many messages from people that have been inspired by what I’ve written, and they tell me they’ve learned something practical. Sometimes it’s hard to measure the impact of an article, or put a monetary value on it. If you really want to know why I’m still blogging, check out my series on “Boosting Your Business with a Blog.”
What I want to say in answer to your rant is this: there’s no need to share a wealth of information and experience at your own expense. You could offer your services as a business coach and get a second income stream going. People will appreciate your advice even more, because they’ve paid for it. If they’re not willing to invest in coaching, they weren’t that interested in the first place.
I have spent plenty of my time and energy trying to help individuals looking to get into v.o. Quite frankly, with the exceptions of a few people, despite the many hours I may have given, it has been rather thankless. Sadly, my “free advice” was treated as having the value for which it was sold. On the other hand, individuals are paying somebody $200 an hour to twirl chickens over their head and talk into sweat socks. That somehow is the miracle answer.
Sadly, since my original post here, I’ve had some discussions with several individuals who I believed were doing well. Certainly their online personas do little to suggest otherwise.I was both shocked and saddened to hear that these talent, who many look up to as having “arrived”, barely have money to ride the bus.
It’s sad on so many levels that I don’t know what to say. The fact that I was completely fooled says wonders for the efficacy of the internet in terms of sprucing up a persona.
I remember hearing a friend speak about the ills of the positive thought movement. He said, if you expect the worst, you can only be pleasantly surprised or you can be right.
So, the only question now is, “what do we do”?
I just realized I said the word sad or sadly about 38 times in my last post. My apologies. I misplaced the thesaurus.
There’s a discussion on the Voiceover Gigs LinkedIn group that started off with Michael Rappaport writing:
If I remember it correctly, these were 8 paragraph scripts!
You should see how many voice-over artists claiming to have years of experience, were throwing themselves at this ‘golden opportunity.’ It was embarrassing. The shocking thing was that some of them had very nice demos. Yet, they were putting themselves in the bargain basement. That’s how desperate they must have been.
What to do? May I suggest two options:
1. If you’re not making any money and you’ve tried everything to turn the tide, go find another job.
2. Ignore the Craigslist rates and go after the jobs that pay a decent amount of money. Sell your services at a reasonable price. Most startups don’t make it passed the first year, not because the product or service was bad, but because low prices lead to low revenue.
Volume isn’t going to make up for low prices. It’s not how much you sell, but how much you keep and/or how much you make that matters.
>>>I have spent plenty of my time and energy trying to help individuals looking to get into v.o.
I figure I make my contribution to newbies on these forums.
It was my hope to return to full time VO when I retired. I invested about $30k in my studio electronics and booth and was getting ready to begin. My “investment” was based on a presumption that getting back in would be just like it was in “the old days.” However, in studying the business, I decided that pursuing VO was a waste of my time and energy. …let me back in with all of my old clients and contacts and I’m game; starting over is just plain stupid.
From that you can certainly see how foolish I think the 99% of the newbies are.
I’ve been interested in TTS technologies, so my plan is to build a process to make that work once I retire. If I succeed it will put a lot of living, breathing VOs out of work…but not the really good ones…they’ll always have work.
Paul,
I was asking “what to do?”, more from the standpoint of how does one handle these changes that I feel are bringing down the profession. I strive to have clean and clear communication and to underpromise and over deliver and do all those good things. But just as the community for voiceover seems to be spinning us all into combination voice talent/ editors/ marketers/ who-knows-whaters,it also seems to be dictating other aspects of the business, even at what I would consider the top.
Within the past six months or so, I have seen the numbers of ASAP auditions grow to as many as 2 per week. We don’t get booked anymore, we get check availed. Even relatively small auditions seem to be getting handed to 20 or 30 talent agents. It seems like spaghetti against the wall as to whether they’ll even listen to your agency’s audition reel.
While it’s not being broadcast, I’m seeing people I know who have made six figure+ incomes at v.o. for years now looking at incomes that are fractions of what they were a few years ago. What do you suggest to these people?
Here’s where things get really interesting. Any kid with an interest in economics can tell you that when a good becomes less scarce, the price will eventually come down. With the surge in home studios and the increase in people trying to make it as a voice-over, I don’t see this business ever going back to the good old days of Don and his limo.
What high-end talent should do to stay marketable, differs from person to person. A voice talent isn’t a commodity. People have different skills and abilities that will lead them to different solutions. The most flexible and versatile talent wins the day.
As we have seen, some talent will do very well as a voice coach or start an academy of some sort. Others make up for lost income by becoming successful authors/speakers. Self-publishing has never been easier. Voice actors like Armin Hierstetter start their own voice casting service.
Harlan Hogan was one of the first to find clever ways to make money in his sleep. As most of us know, he developed a line of products that is selling well, and every time he sells other gear on his website, he gets a commission from Amazon. (I think that’s how it works).
The idea is to hold on to trusted clients and to develop second or third income streams that make you less vulnerable to the ups and downs of the market.
In other words, we shouldn’t put all our (nest) eggs in one basket.
If all else fails, we could always take our savings and move to a place like South Africa where we’d get a lot more bang for our buck. With a home studio it doesn’t really matter where we’re located anymore.
Harlan wasn’t the first, Paul. I might have been. I self-published and sold a booklet, “How to be a star!” back in the early 80s 🙂 I also had a phone patch studio that put most of today’s phone patch home studios to shame.
I guess that I was ahead of my time 😉
Paul, there you go again…… being 100% RIGHT!
I think many of the real pros in this business are questioning their monetary worth right now. It’s a sad thing. Hard to hold onto the big picture. As of late, it seems I’ve been asked to work below my rate quite frequently. And it makes me even sicker to see what low budgets are posted for so much of the work on the P2P sites. Yet, I stubbornly cling to the belief in myself as a unique talent. Yes, it’s meant losing jobs. Some I couldn’t care less about since I know the clients tied to those requests would be unreasonable to work for. Others were good gigs but just had an unrealistic budget to work with. Those are the ones that hurt. I even have had people basically say to me…” Well, who do you think you are!?”
Well, I’m a professional Voice Actor who has earned a place in this business to be able to make a full time living at it. It’s taken me years of experience, training and business acumen to get here. If they think we’re all alike in this biz then go find someone else! And maybe they’ll find out what it’s like getting substandard work done by a lessor talent who doesn’t know what his worth is. I know it’s hard to determine that but, as you say, it’s our job to know that!
Indeed, it is sad. The price expectations of the voice seekers can be depressing. The effect is the pros, the ones who care about achieving the right nuance of voice that will help the client achieve results from the project, will just stop submitting to the p2p sites and turn down other inquiries.
Sadder still is to listen to the demos on those p2p sites. Poor audio quality, terrible reads, embellished information beyond belief, fake demos, and 99% have the “radio voice”. (Sorry radio-people, but that’s the truth.)
On the p2p’s, you’ll notice that some of the more professional voice-seekers now include blurbs along the lines of “Must have professional equipment and record in a quiet studio. No USB mics.” Well, anyway, more could be written about the quality.
It seems the lowballers can’t be stopped. So let them have their
low, low prices and their self-deception of having all the skills necessary to be a pro. In the end, the price undercutters will have created a class-system in the industry.
The p2p’s ought to be concerned. Especially those that take a percentage of the payment. When prices drop for the talent, those p2p’s lose money too.
But also, the p2p’s, by allowing anyone-and-their-USB-mic to register, is contributing to the overall problem of price, quality and voice-seeker expectations.
This can’t last. Already there are signs that at least one leading p2p has become the place to post the cheapo jobs for bottom feeders to troll.
The lowballers will be (are) the ones getting those one-off jobs with horrible scripts and being part of a project that irritates the viewer or just puts the viewer to sleep.
The pro, high-quality vo talents, will do the jobs for companies that care about the quality of their product, and thus the quality of the voiceover talent and the video, which contributes to the identity of the company, is important.
Regarding lowballers, an organized effort of client education is necessary. All correspondence to inquiries should contain a pdf, or links to a central website, that covers all the information about pricing in the business.
Perhaps we organize and setup a website aimed at voice-seekers? Provide a digital packet for vo talents? If more and more of us consistently worked on educating voice-seekers, it could have an impact.
The unrecognized problem is that everyone thinks they are a pro after they get one job.
Trust me when I tell you that VOs for APJ don’t see the sort of money that is doled out for EMEA…and EMEA VOs generally don’t get the money paid to the pros in NAM. …so just how professional do you have to be to get an APJ gig for a major corp?
Don’t kid yourself; most of the gigs you get through auditions are pure luck; the jobs you get after the first gig may be because you did a great job. …even at that, you can be replaced in a heartbeat for someone working for a 1/10th of the money.
When I think about the “hyper-importance” assigned to media jobs by marketers, all I can do is laugh. I could find 50 people in a matter of hours, equally capable of doing as good job as any rank ‘n file talent for a commercial or promo, and pay them $100 in a buy-out. The only exceptions that I would make are for highly recognizable talent, the exceedingly rare Johnny Depp grade actors, and highly qualified, long form narrators.
The reason the VO racket is falling apart is because many, many regular people can do an exceptional job for most tasks.
If you’re just an average bear, you ain’t special. You’d better start practicing more.
Sometimes, timing is just cosmic in its’ nature. I figured I’d check e-mail one more time before turning in and saw the following SmartCast from a pay-to-audition site that shall remain nameless:
“Become the New Voice of ‘our’ Phone System”
…with a budget of “Flexible – USD 3 month premium membership to ‘our site'”
The copy included with the audition is the stock paragraph-and-a-half you’d expect for a simple IVR system, so no surprises there.
However – when you do the math out to see what the pay is for this awesome opportunity, you realize that it’s a whopping $73.75. Be still my heart!
It’s going to be really hard to put the brakes on low-balling when one of the biggies is leading the charge. For some reason, the term ‘enabler’ comes to mind…
I doubt seriously that any 10 year vets will be rushing to take this offer, but this certainly has value for many actors above and beyond the concept of direct barter exchange.
To be the voice for a marketplace you belong to will have its advantages. The p.r. engine of Voice 123 is not sluggish and besides the emails that go out to numerous hirers of talent generally with links to the talent’s Voice 123 demos, there are perhaps other bragging rights that go along with this.
Notwithstanding, voice mail has for years been one of the lowest paying areas for voice talent and generally requires the least amount of training.
In terms of the annoying crap that is destroying the business, this would be way down on my list.
Thanks for the wonderfully verbalized thoughts I have been trying to get out of my head. I am a freelance graphic artist and in the last 3 years, I have been besieged by wannabe freelancers who are displaced art directors trying to bring in money. I don’t begrudge them work, BUT I charge 50hr and they are charging 25!! 15 years ago I started out charging 35 and I refuse to lose my foothold. The startling thing is, when I work for a temp agency (which I have to do sometimes to make ends maeet) I make 25hr. They are charging temp WAGES. You know the temp agency is getting double that! Why are they so stupid?
There are many reasons why people justify lowballing tactics and you’ll find them in my article “Those Bloody Bottom Feeders.”
After years of thinking and writing about this topic, I have come to this conclusion: Lowballers know exactly what they’re worth! If I were to hire them, I wouldn’t pay a penny more.
As usual – great post. There certainly are people out there, some in fact who read your posts, who have subscribed to these lowball practices in the past. Hopefully, well written posts like these will hit home and the light of logic will shine in those dark crevasses that were previously unlit.
I will certainly keep on writing about the issue, and hopefully give people some food for thought. At the end of the day, lowballers know exactly what they’re worth!
I’m a seasoned pro with over 30 years in the V/O biz. I have recently started doing audio books, and I really see this as an opportunity to really enhance my $$. My question is: what’s a competive rate to charge? I just finished my first book and now I realize I really ” gave the store away”. In this particular project, I counted 27 character voices, plus narration, editing and revisions. It was Baptism by fire, but I really learned alot, and I really enjoy doing audiobooks. Love to hear some feedback
If you’ve looked at my rate sheet, you know I charge $300 per finished hour.
http://www.acx.com has titles in the $0-$50 to $400-$1000 per finished hour range.
My advice: never bid on a job until you know what you’re getting yourself into, and without having an idea of the average rate.