Breaking up is never easy. That’s what the song says.
In my case, it was a long time in the making and I didn’t shed a single tear.
Yes, she tried to win me back, but I was determined. Our relationship had run its course. It was time for me to move on.
Let me explain.
HIGH HOPES
2009 was the year I joined voices.com. I was naive. I was excited. I was determined to make it as a voice-over. “Voices” seemed to be the perfect place to hang out my shingle and conquer the world.
Today, I have a five-star rating, 5445 listens (more than any other Dutch talent), and I have landed a total of… (are you ready?) TEN jobs, earning me a whopping $2,740.89. God only knows how many auditions I have had to submit before being selected.
This can only mean one of two things. Either,
Dear Paul,
Parting is such sweet sorrow.
I know the emotional roller-coaster you’re riding now after this heartbreaking break-up. It’s eating you up inside, I know…I understand your pain…many years ago I had to make the same heart splitting decision.
The tears dry…eventually.
Stay strong my friend and remember – when you are tempted, late at night, by the siren’s sweet, sexy advances of easy money and buckets of possible VO cash….
YOU have a mortgage to pay and a wife who likes to eat r3 squares a day, so you needs da REAL dough, capiche?!!!
😉
Unlike this silly comment, your post was well written, nice job.
Best always,
–Peter
I agree. No knock on David and Stephanie…because I think they’ve done a pretty good job with the site. But, above all else, it is a profit center for them, built on the multiplication of memberships.
The site represents way too many voices to give each of them a fair shot. No one will ever listen to more than XX auditions for anything…so having such high numbers all auditioning for virtually every job serves only a handful well (the handful that get heard).
I think Voices and Voice123 are places for people to get their feet wet. And if veterans can make the system work for them, more power to them. But I gave up my memberships in group sites years back, and am not tempted to lash myself to those ships’ masts again any time soon.
Yes … Yes….. YES … YES and CONGRATULATIONS! Well done Paul … Happy Divorce Day. I am sure there will be others who follow suit! There are undoubtedly people making money from the P2P sites, but it aint the voice artists! All the best.
Thanks Paul. I too was on Voices for about 6 months and I too only landed 10 gigs. I was contemplating getting back on there again, but felt a good amount of reluctance. Gut feeling I suppose. Based on what you have written, it seems they have gotten pretty bad with regard to their system and policies. Thanks for helping me make up my mind on this. I will focus on more SEO for my own site, try to land a decent agent(s) and forgo the P2P nightmare with this site.
Hooboy….yep you pretty well nailed it Paul. What really drives the point home is the “montage du merde” – THIS is where voice acting is headed? I’m headed in the other direction. It’s quite clear that any of the P2Ps do not in any way work for the voice talent, it is strictly a numbers game, and if any VOs are able to make more than burrito money, that’s more of a reflection of their own talent and acumen than anything other than the conduit provided by the P2P. Every time I am tempted to give them “one more try” because I hear of one of my fellow Faffers booking well thru them, I think back to my own experiences, not only with them but with any roster that asks for $ to belong – I’m sorry but I ain’t payin’ no more. Thousands of dollars wasted. I’m awaiting a commercial demo from post-production in LA that I hope is going to be so good, it would be an insult to those of us who worked on it to post it on one of the P2Ps. Many other VOs have found ways to explain or justify staying with the P2Ps, such as SEO, or it’s a way to attract clients thru private leads, etc. but they are the exceptions – the rule is the montage du merde from earlier. And that rule is what is driving prices down, in addition to the lack of quality and the perception by those looking for talent that 1. that’s what talent costs, and 2. that’s as good as talent is these days. WRONG! Those established VOs are in some small way continuing to contribute to the problem. Walking away and leaving the playground to the kiddies is the only way we’re going to be able to save this section of the industry. I may not be working every day doing VO but I haven’t wasted any further money on “The Dream”.
Been there. Done that. I feel your pain and appreciate your decision. The business model just doesn’t work for me and never has. I’ve let most P2P subscriptions simply expire, with one small one left. What that’s done, I’m done.
Thank you for this insight Paul. I’ve not been in the business as long as you, and I made my profile there only 2 months ago. After my first requested audition (which amounted to nothing), I was just thinking of getting a paid membership to Voices.com, just to see my options. Glad I did not immediately go for it.
After reading this, I will postpone, maybe indefinitely, as I do have better paid jobs through my own website. It does not quite pay the rent yet, but I’m confident in getting there. And I am all for keeping up a minimum rate for good work!
So thanks, Dutch colleague!
Unbelievable Voices.com stats for a seasoned, talented VO such as yourself. I have broken up and gotten back together, enticed by a $ 200/year offer. Here’s a little ditty for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipzh4_W1KQ0
Happy Summer! (Lynne)
Paul,
Thanks for your cautionary tale. The opening image, though, is somewhat disturbing. I mean, slicing a maple leaf in half with a razor to illustrate your ennui with your experience with the Canadians at Voices. A bit much, perhaps?
After all, even when they’re upset, Canadians are rumored to be polite about it. They may misunderstand the underlying spirit of your blog post. 😉
As usual Paul spot on. I keep plenty busy through repeat clients or folks who find me on my website. And while I am currently on Voices.com, I will be letting my membership expire for many of the reasons you bring up. Their policies leave a lot to be desired and the low balling you mentioned is not a game I want to play.
2009 to 2013? I congratulate you on your perseverance. “Bravo” for putting into words what so many of us have thought, and filing for divorce!
I got an annulment after only six months! I got work, but it wasn’t worth the scramble to “be first” and the uncertainty of losing to a lowballer with less talent. But you should know that there are other on-line audition sites with similar policies.
“The Voice Realm”(dot-com)is better than “Voices” in that you don’t have to pay to join and all jobs are at a set rate… no bidding. The talent pool is not as deep because they require auditions of both your voice/delivery and your studio’s ambient sound. But, as with “Voices” there is no direct contact permitted between client and talent, and their 20% fee is twice that of “Voices”. By the time I get paid, I realize that I would never have accepted that rate from a prospective client.
I’m still waiting for someone to come up with a satisfactory on line audition system.
Smart VO newbies will read this and learn the lesson before they have to waste $300 on a membership. I did OK with Voices but like you, our relationship has fizzled.
Love this line: “I only pay when I actually get to play.” Awesome!
Paul you are SO eloquent! I tried the “other” P2P and got NOTHIN. Mind you I didn’t try very long, but I even went to J. Michael and got some pointers. While he’s incredible at it, I just found that 123 company to be LESS than #1. I have been thinking of trying Voices, but now you are making me rethink… hmmmm
Yes…..but…. I hate to say it, I’m still a little in love! I still get a little tingle, the heartbeat quickens, and I can’t help smiling… when I get that “you have a deposit” e-mail!
In all seriousness, I have to say that Voices.com still works for me, and I get in quick, do my audition, ask for a good rate and book the job enough times to make it worth it. And I get repeat bookings from clients that I first “met” through Voices.com.
In the midst of all this anti Voices.com fervor I just wanted to raise my hand!!!
So now that you’re single again, are you free tonight, Paul? 🙂
Congrats on kicking the habit. Onward and upward…
Hey Paul – indeed, you make some great points, and I think the montage you put together was not only entertaining but extremely enlightening. I guess I only ever listened to the “top booking” talents demos. There’s a reason they book. You’ll probably find my name somewhere in the top 50 at any given time too. I certainly have made my $199 annual membership there back many times over. But you’re right about spinning out lots of auditions – many of which may never be listened to, in hopes of booking a small percentage. But, I might add that in any agency (NY, LA, Chicago, and anywhere else in the world) you will find the same competition, except that the players will be BETTER….so it’s even harder to win the booking. At least with a P2P, from my own personal experience, I can choose what looks like a good fit, and be an early submitter – to help my chances. It may be a tiny bit easier for women too, since there are probably less women competing than men. And, I’ve connected and continued working relationships with MANY clients that I’ve met through Voices.com – so it’s been well worth it for me. Just thought I’d raise my hand as well, as a semi-success story, so that it’s not just a Voices.com bashing.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, Paul – I really appreciate it, as I’ve been debating whether or not to join! I’m on another P2P site, which I’ve been on for a number of years, but this year I’m winning less auditions from that site than I was last year, when I was only doing VO part-time! I’m submitting more auditions and winning less gigs…go figure! Fortunately, I’m making more money on my own; if I was depending on the P2P, I’d be on the street. This is why I was contemplating switching – but perhaps I need to rethink that plan!
Paul,
Well thought out, well written and professional post.
You’ve captured my thoughts about many P2P sites.
You have to do what’s best for your business.
Thank you for posting it.
John
Paul,
Given your talent, I’m shocked that your ROI has been so relatively low. But I’m glad to see you are, as they say in the sports world, “going out on top.” I will sometimes check to see which voiceoverists have left feedback for a job poster after the job has been completed and, by inference, learn who got the job I auditioned for but didn’t get. I saw your name as a feedback poster as recently as this week. So I assume you were recently awarded a job, got paid, and then said, “I don’t need this anymore.”
Despite the drawbacks (I especially hate the nebulous fee ranges; there’s a huge difference between a $100 job and a $250 job), I’m going to hang around a bit longer. The more high quality competitors such as you jump ship, the better my odds will become.
When I cancelled my own Voices.com membership last December, here is what I told them:
“I am extremely unhappy with:
1. the way you changed the rules for contacting clients
2. the fact that hordes of other talent submitting auditions means if I can’t turn mine around in 20 minutes, forget about my chances
3. the fact that rates for each job are not fixed, which encourages bottom-feeding. I always submit with MY rates within the budget range, which is always the high end.
4. the fact that you’ll take anybody’s money, regardless of how poorly they represent as a talent (lack of skill, terrible sound audio, unrpofessional, etc.)
5. the fact that your primary competitor, Voice123.com, handles issues 1-3 in a FAR better manner than your company does, AND the fact that I book FAR more jobs through V123
6. all this adds up to my decision that I can spend my precious time far more effectively by doing just about anything else except trying to get good-paying jobs on Voices.com
Sincerely,
Tom Test
22 year VO veteran and the voice of many Telly Award-winning spots
Hi Paul,
Good story. It will take the good talent to leave Voices before changes are made. I can’t leave because I make too much money with them to justify it, but I do see the wheels starting to come off and I do get irritated with them more often than not. And they do focus on the buyer and not the talent, which I never understood. The talent pay the majority of the income the site receives. A P2P designed by and for Voice talent only would be nice.
I dumped Voice123.com two months before my first year was even up. Didn’t like the “race” to submit, the low-ball nature of the rates, and after all those auditions booked only one job. Waste of time. Decided my $ would be better spent with my VO coach.
I never did like the fact that they had unlimited submissions. I know some folks liked that, but realistically speaking, no seeker is going to forge through hundreds of auditions.
For me, the shine came off when they started charging 10% and were basically forcing folks to use their escrow “service”. What service? It doesn’t serve me. Oh! Now I get it! It wasn’t meant to.
Thank you so much for all your insights and contributions! Judging by the massive response, it is clear to me that my personal experience with voices.com isn’t so unique after all. I’m also happy to learn that some people are still booking jobs on “voices”. It’s never a black and white picture. I didn’t write my story to encourage people to cancel or not renew their memberships. My story is just one piece of information you could take into account.
Let me point out that I didn’t just audition for Dutch language jobs on voices.com. In fact, I do a majority of my work in English. Sometimes I will use a more British accent. Sometimes I will use my European, more neutral accent.
Of course I’ve been thinking long and hard why I wasn’t very successful on the site. I had paid my dues and I really wanted it to work. Clients hire me every week, so why not on voices.com? For one, I refused to play the low-lower-lowest game. My minimum rate starts at $250 and since most of the jobs on voices.com are in the $100 – $250 range, they end up in the trash can. The official voices response is that one can always put in a higher bid, but somehow, that has never worked for me. Because there is no direct contact between client and talent, there is no way to convince someone to spend more than he had originally planned.
Another problem I encountered had to do with the vague and rather useless job descriptions (e.g. Male – English – Middle aged). I’ve compared auditioning on sites like voices.com to shooting darts in the dark. You’re supposed to hit the bull’s eye, but no one tells you where it is. Without a clear map, it’s hard to get to your destination.
Lastly, my critique isn’t new or unique. You’ve heard it all before. Voices.com has heard it all before…. and nothing ever happens.
A week after I had canceled my membership, a voices.com representative made an obligatory phone call to find out my reasons for not renewing. He said I would never get back to my grandfathered rate of $199 per year, if I would change my mind in a year or so. To me, he didn’t really seem interested in my reasons for leaving voices.com. A week later he called again using the same script, and responded as if we had not had the first conversation. That confirmed I had made the right decision.
Very insightful Paul! I decided to give Voices.com a test run, and after 3 months, have realized that it is not for me. I understand that others have found success with them, but for me, it just doesn’t work. Personally, I have issues with several aspects of their business model and at this point, would rather cut ties. If changes are made, then I might reconsider down the road. For now, the return on investment is not worth it.
Great stuff Paul, and terrific comments from everybody. I had meant to cancel my subscription this year and, D’oh! I was so busy with gigs from non P2Ps that week I forgot to do it. I won’t make that mistake again. All I got last year for my auditions was I made it as a finalist for a successful video game sequel. I probably spent a couple of days time auditioning over the year. It’s not worth it! I also can’t stand how they have ‘private invitations’ that are sent to 50+ talents. I work for many clients in countries with bad economies for short jobs that pay under my rates, but they’re good clients and occasionally send me longer programs at full rates. If clients in India can pay $200-$300 for a five minute video that I don’t have to audition for, I’m not going to audition for a $200 ten minute video for an American client! In other words, there’s plenty of low hanging fruit out there that you don’t have to be a P2P player to snag. I think I’ll be spending my Voices money next year on online advertising. Heh…I think I said that last year!
To paraphrase Dr. Phil: “We teach our clients how to treat us.” The rate we accept becomes acceptable. That’s why I don’t put all the blame on voices.com. Those willing to work for practically peanuts, should stop monkeying around.
However, as a “power pricer,” a site like voices.com sends a strong signal to buyers: this is what you can expect to pay. If they’re even undercutting prices from low-wage countries such as China and India, something is seriously wrong.
I want to support a service that advocates fair and reasonable pricing. Had I stayed with “voices” any longer, I would have felt like an enabler.
extremely well written and astute view. thank you. I left them many years ago for much the same appraisal.
All the p2p sites are a lottery game. That’s no way to build a business. I’m still with voices.com but all I do now is the personal invites, and or 1 weekly audition used for coaching with the chance to win it. It’s a numbers game, you get a job every 30-40 auditions. So it’s been a great way to gain experience and a few clients, but that’s it. I won’t renew membership…time is better spent on my own marketing.
Hi Jack, I couldn’t agree more. Any marketing tips you’d like to share?
Just booked 2 jobs this week through Voices.com. One was a 3 minute narration, for which I bid $250 (my normal quoted rate for something of this length) and I was #12 of 57 auditions. And the other was a longer narration, for which I bid $400 (again, typical $50 per finished minute rate)and I was #6 of 55 auditions. It doesn’t always happen this way. There were other auditions submitted through this site that I didn’t win. Just checked stats on my jobs completed page, and have 109 to date. Certainly, compared to what I need to keep a business thriving, that’s a drop in the bucket, so as I say, I use this site more as icing on the cake, or to develop relationships with clients that continue beyond the one job.
But compared to what I’ve booked with
agencies in the past 5 years, it’s a higher
gross number. And certainly enough to justify my annual $199 membership. If I figure amount of time spent submitting – then it’s probably not a great ROI – but in perspective of ALL the things I do to keep my VO business rolling, it’s just another cog. But I’ve dropped other things that weren’t working well for me, so we each have to chart our individual courses, based on what’s producing the best results.
It just goes to show that different people have different experiences using the same site. I’m glad it’s worth it for you, Debbie!
If you’re reading this and you’ve made the decision to become a member, I strongly encourage you to keep track of how much time you spend looking at job offers and auditioning for- and working on the jobs I hope you will get. At the end of the year, you should take a good look at how much you’ve made.
Deduct all your expenses and divide the final number by the hours spent generating this income. How much did you really earn per hour? Don’t just look at how much or how little you made. It matters how much you get to keep.
I’m like you. So many years at Voices.com , so few jobs. I’ve done vo for TV CMs for famous brands and which air around the world. Those clients must think I bring something to the table. Otherwise they wouldn’t have hired me, or renewed the spots after the initial term.
Voices.com is good for a daily laugh though – the job descriptions are full of misspellings, wrong words, poor grammar and sloppy syntax. (And dare I mention the scripts?)
Hi Paul,
All very valid and probable points After a long abscence from voices.com, I rejoined on a monthly basis in February of this year. So…after roughly five months into the shark tank – I can echo many of your shared experiences with a few bookings to show for the often overlooked aspect of total ROI.
An aspect of voices, which until recently, I had no cause to comment on – is the general lack of policy and real regard for talent…the only ones who pay for the privledge of utilizing the site.
VO PUPPY MILL
Despite their claims, I have found their scrutiny of not only talent (which is non existent) BUT of the job posters, sorely lacking. It’s really sore, more like an open wound. As opposed to a proactive appoach, voices seems reactive in dealing with dubious “clients” and postings with misguided agendas.
Worse still, action only comes at the point of inpetus in the form of a heads up from the well intentioned talent. And in respect to ROI…More lost labour time!
Recently, I lost out on a gig handled by a member of their client management team. The reason, a whopping ten minutes had elapsed before I was able to return the voices email. The acct manager had declared “next!” and that was that. At my dismay and subsequent inquiry into voices lack of policy with contacting the clients preferred talent – I received a basic marketing letter with some “so sorrys” sprinkled in.
Nothing real there with reverence to talent. As another vo talent blogger noted, they exist for one main reason – “To separate you from you money”. And gauging by the overwhelming top 100 who book repeatedly ad naudeum…I’d say the other 24,900 members get it!
Thanks for sharing your experiences with us, Stone. I’ve been without voices.com for two weeks now and I can’t believe how much time I’m saving by not having to look at all those auditions every day. Instead, I’m focusing on clients who value my talent and respect my rates.
Hey Paul,
I read your post with an open mind because I’m new to voice over and have spent the last 6 months totally committed doing anywhere from 250-300 auditions a week. While I totally empathize and understand why you are leaving voices, I feel compelled to let people know that it is still an important and useful tool. Just with Voices, I am booking 4-5 times a week and it is really helping me build my list of clients. I do recognize that this has been great fortune, but it is also largely due to the amount of work I am putting in as well. Anyway, that’s all I really wanted to say. Good luck in your career!
You are right. I get audiobooks all the time at acx.com, but I could never land any work on voices.com. My voiceover coach told me the dirty secrets of the site, such as the platinum membership giving premium members a huge, unfair lead in the business, and not all my auditions reach the client because they have the “right” to filter yours out. I asked for my money back, and they refused. DO NOT sign up for voices.com!