“It’s not the crook we fear in modern business; rather, it’s the honest guy who doesn’t know what he is doing.” Owen Young
The lines have been drawn.
The time to mince words is over.
Every day, our community seems to get more polarized around the issue of low rates. Listen to the buzz. Look at the chatter. Do you think this bubble is about to burst?
Some people are past being polite. They’re frustrated and angry. I like that. If you’re pissed off at something, it means you give a damn and you want things to change.
Very well said as always Paul!
You do realize of course, there will be folks that read this and get their knickers in a bunch because, well – they’re the ones that are accepting $10/script jobs and feel that they have perfectly good reasons (excuses?) to accept low-ball work.
…when you run across folks like that who don’t “get it” and probably never will, remember the saying that my dad drilled into my head as I was growing up:
“Never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.”
See you at the Mixer!
-Mike
Our creator gave mankind free will to do the dumbest- and the most intelligent things imaginable. I have said it before and I will say it again: lowballers know exactly what they’re worth. All I can do is flush out the excuses and offer an alternative.
Yet again Paul – thought provoking, stimulating and I totally agree.
It is nothing short of exploitation that major corporates are paying peanuts for the VO for their commercials/ business films/ promos etc when they are making products that sell millions and when their profits and executive pay rates are continuing to rise – and shame on the stations that are playing advertisements that are not paying proper rates that at least match union rates even if they are not using union talent.
Rates are down across the board – no doubt about it – Despite the fact that the internet has given me access to more work and a home studio has allowed me to do a wider range of work than I used to do, when averaged out over a year I earn less now per audio hour than I did five years ago. In reality, probably about the same per hour as I was earning fifteen years ago. I always negotiate and always offer good value for money – but there is a point beyond which I will not sink – and therefore certain allegedly professional groups that I will not join.
Why are so many professional voices subscribing to these internet casting sites that are promulgating these low rates? One look at the rates that Freelancer and similar sites are offering for VO work and and my decision is made – nothing on this earth would persuade me to join! But people continue to pay their annual subs – and then complain that they are being exploited. Boycott these sites – leave them to the amateurs … There is nothing there for a professional voice artist – and if the professionals abandon such cattle markets then the clients will perhaps realise that quality comes at a price and will, I believe, be prepared to pay for the voices they want!
Thank you Paul.
It’s sad, but people allow themselves to be taken advantage of and clients are loving it. They’re the winners.
The absolute beginner who has just made 50 bucks rejoices and proudly tells the world: “Look I just made some money by talking into my USB microphone! Making something is better than making nothing, right?”
I believe it was Philip Armour who said:
“Anybody can cut prices, but it takes brain to produce a better article.”
Freelancer.com is a lost cause regarding voiceover. It’s the top hangout for bottom feeders and their overseas suppliers. Don’t even bother with that site.
The vo-specific p2p’s are digging their own graves. One major p2p relies heavily on referrals from voice talents for gaining new subscribers. The jobs offered on this site are increasingly the kind perfect for the price-undercutting bottom feeders.
Another p2p earns not only from subscriptions, but on its escrow service. But if payments to the vo talent goes down, that p2p loses a little money too.
While Paul keeps hitting at these issues, I continue to believe in vocie-seeker education.The p2p’s don’t do it. We need to get organized.
Nice follow up to your last article, Paul! And just as full of passion, accuracy and truth!
Always great to have a communicator like you in our corner!
I heard a phrase a long time ago that struck me… “You don’t hang a Rembrandt in a cheap art gallery.”
Isn’t Rembrandt some kind of tooth paste?
Seriously, that’s a great way of putting it. Unfortunately, Rembrandt wasn’t a great businessman. In 1656, he was declared bankrupt. His house and collections were auctioned; however, the sum thereby raised was insufficient to cover the debts.
I’ve been a freelance Make-up artist in production for 25 years and have recently started wearing the talent hat again. I love being crew and talent. I love the diversity.
I’ve come across the rate debate in Make-up as well and have tried to communicate to the other MUA in the community for years about how they are selling themselves short with their low rates.
There is a standard rate that fluctuates per area and job, but most MUAs are too afraid to ask the price. I’ve only recently understood why. They just don’t value themselves enough. And they give excuses as to why I should charge more. Oh well. There is nothing we can do about how anyone else behaves. And so I’ve given up. I can only focus on my behavior and do what is right for me and hope that whatever that is will create more good somehow.
Interestingly, last night I went to an open house to a production house somewhat nearby that wanted to show off it’s new green screen. My husband is in the biz as well so we thought we’d introduce ourselves and see what the place had to offer.
I had a convo with one of the owners and told him what I do. I was surprised I had never worked with him or heard of him. He mentioned a couple of MUAs that he uses, but I didn’t recognize their names. I figured let that one go. He’s got his girls he likes to use.
I asked him where he finds his V.O. He said he uses the local T.V. station and radio hosts. 1 man – 1 woman for all his spots. And if they can’t do it, he uses Speedy Spots for $35 a spot.
He explained that if I wanted to do work for him for that rate he would consider me, but that was all he could afford because he was doing local commercial jobs at a budget of $1500. I just looked at him and nodded.
He then said…. get this. “I focus on quantity…. how do you say it?” I said “Quality not quantity?” He said, “No, quantity! I do a lot of these jobs and I have to compete so these are the rates I’m working with.”
I just looked at him and nodded. Now I know why I’ve never worked for him. He’d never be able to afford my services.
I know another local production house that uses Speedy Spots as well. The producer has hired me at fair rates as a MUA, on camera talent and V.O., but when he can’t afford it, he goes to Speedy Spots, uses friends and family on camera or hires one of the lesser charging MUA.
Sometimes he’ll ask me for a break on MUA work and I’ll negotiate with him. I really like him and it keeps a nice relationship. So, sometimes I just think it really is the production houses (in house or freelance) that start the rate debate. And we just have to figure out for OURSELVES what we want to do with our own time and lives.
I’m still learning about the V.O. side of biz and having just started on a P2P to try it out…. I may have not completely understood the rate or bidding side of it at first. I appreciate this blog and the networking sites. I’m paying attention and learning a lot fast!
I joined the p2p just over a month ago and did win a fair paying job after auditioning a bunch randomly. I had gotten a lot of personal invites at first and now that I’ve been reading the networking sites, I wonder if the jobs I auditioned for weren’t just the community checking up on me – the newbie!
At the time I thought I was bidding fairly, but realize now, I may not have been. I was still experimenting with the site. The job I booked was from a personal invitation and I’m now thinking of this P2P as just another marketing tool.
Since my subscription has been paid for with the one job, I’ll keep it and audition if something good comes up. Or decide to just wait for the personal invitations.
Point is, we really cannot make other people do anything they don’t want to do. We can only do our best to be our best and hope that it rubs off.
I think it’s important to educate about rate and what a fair rate is, so that people know. In the end, if someone continues to undervalue themselves or their time, that is their choice.
There is nothing anyone can do about it except be a good unfluence. Not an angry influence. Not a finger pointing influence. A good influence.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us, Joell. Black Friday will soon be upon us, and people are prepared to stand in line for hours to get the best deals. I’m not against smart pricing, but I am against predatory pricing.
In retail it is common to sell certain items at a loss, just to attract shoppers that will buy other articles at full price as well. The big chains can afford it. The solopreneur cannot. It’s financial suicide.
It’s telling that this production house you write about uses on-air talent. I assume these people are already compensated for their time at the radio station. That’s probably the reason why they are fine with what they’re getting paid for the promos.
I don’t believe in fingerpointing for the sake of fingerpointing. I believe in presenting a strong case for fair pricing. If that makes certain colleagues uncomfortable, so be it. Change can be uncomfortable.
Ultimately, this whole rate debate will boil down to ethics… the art and science of doing the right thing. Every decision we make has an impact on the larger whole, whether we like it or not. If we believe that one person can make a difference, that one person could be you or me.
That’s why I will continue to present my case, and I challenge everyone to weigh the arguments and come up with answers that will benefit the entire community.
TWO THUMBS UP for your last entry Paul… your response to Joell!!!
Paul wrote: “Ultimately, this whole rate debate will boil down to ethics… the art and science of doing the right thing”
Agreed. Do the right thing. The cream rises to the top.
Hi Paul,
Thank you for this article – it was really interesting and informative, and even though I am a ‘newbie’ in this industry, I have a lot of respect for this ongoing debate.
Through all of the ezines, chat groups etc, I have become very aware of this much discussed topic of conversation within the VO world and I absolutely agree with what you’ve said.
Yes,…. I am part time now but I’m taking this profession seriously and working towards making this a full time career for myself.
I’ve been home raising my children for 17 yrs and I need to know that if anything happened that I could support myself and my family. That is my ultimate goal … not just earning gravy money!
It brings with it a renewed sense of my own power. I am on a P2P site, (which by the sounds of it, already offer lower rates) but I have never lowered my rates to those ridiculous prices you are quoting for the very reasons you have stated above – cheap = cheap!
I have had a few jobs and feel my clients have paid fairly for my services. You need to remember though that It is a struggle at the beginning even just knowing what is a high rate, (low is obvious) but also what is in the middle range?
What did you use as guidelines way back when …… when you started out, because even on Edge Studio their guidelines have a broad range?
Apart from a favor I did for a friend, I have vowed to set a certain minimum rate for myself, and if clients don’t like it … then c’est la vie ….. move onwards & upwards and hopefully there will be someone who will.
Hopefully, I will get to meet you one day soon – I’m in New York early Dec, but unfortunately leave the morning of the mixer …. maybe at VOICES 2012? 🙂
Thank you for such an empowering story, Gillian! It’s much easier to give in and settle for a low fee, especially in the beginning of your career. Anyone can sell a car way below sticker price. Overcoming objections and adding value is part of every sales process. You’ll get better at it over time.
The problem is, most voice-over guides talk about which types of microphone to buy, or what to do to prevent mouth noise. No one really tells you how to sell yourself (apart from the obligatory: “You must have a web site and a social media presence”).
How did I find the fees I’m comfortable with? Well, I did a lot of research. I wanted to learn from the best. It was also very important to me to figure out how much I really needed to bring in, in order to break even and make a profit.
As you pointed out, there are some excellent resources online, and this community of colleagues is also very helpful. Dave Courvoisier has a LinkedIn group dedicated to voice-over rates, and questions are always welcome.
Those who don’t agree with me are more than welcome to respond. I don’t pretend to have the final answers in the rate debate, and I’d love to see a lively exchange of opinions.
Here we go again, Paul. You’re preaching to the choir. We all agree that:
1 – There are far too many people trying to wear VO hats that don’t fit.
2 – We all agree that with so many “talent,” the low-ballers are winning.
3 – Most think they have something special to offer. (On this point, I disagree with a few exceptions.)
>>>I continue to believe in vocie-seeker education.The p2p’s don’t do it. We need to get organized.
Voice seekers don’t want to be educated, Mark, and P2Ps don’t want to insult their clients. Ooooophs, we pay the bills, don’t we. Amazing how a business model that caters to customers NOT CONTRIBUTING to the bottom line survives. VOs are the customers and don’t have the brass to make the P2Ps squirm.
Pitiful, Mark.
BTW – Learn to spell VO.
…and there’s bad information in your post, Paul:
>>>Price does not influence the perception of a product…
Oh yes it does! In spades it does. My wife showed me a newspaper ad for a late model Mercedes SUV listed as low miles and good shape for $4300. Without calling, I knew it to be a typo. That’s price influencing perception.
I can estimate within a few hours how long any production job is going to take from a simple description of the project. If someone quotes me a rate for work, the dollars need to align to my estimate. If it’s too low, I automatically know the person doesn’t know what they hell they are talking about. If it’s too high, they’ll learn fast that I know a hell of a lot more about the business they they do. If it’s just a little high, it’s just right. That’s the person worth doing business with because they know their job.
The price someone offers me most definitely influences my perception of them. Price influencing perception.
steve hammill says: “Voice seekers don’t want to be educated”
But in one of your previous posts you wrote that we can be certain that the voice-seeker has called the local studio to find out the rates for voiceover and various other services.
To me, that’s education.
Regarding “BTW – Learn to spell VO.”
“Vocie”? Gimme a break. It was a typo.
The preaching to the choir-thing is getting a bit old, but I guess I deserve it. That’s why I started my previous post with the story about the priest who is delivering the same sermon every Sunday.
The rate debate isn’t going away any time soon, and I think it’s worthwhile to keep on contributing to the discussion. Every time I publish an article, I get new readers who hear my story for the first time. I just hope I can come up with angles that have not yet been beaten to death.
The structure of this post is:
1. A myth, perpetuated by a lowballer
2. Me refuting that myth
That’s why no. 4 (Price does not influence the perception of a product.) is not something I agree with, and I think I’ve made that clear by the examples that follow.
Part of me doesn’t want to believe that the lowballers are winning. I’m on a personal mission to prove them wrong. Based on the tremendous response to my last post, I am certainly not alone.
More and more colleagues are telling me that they’ve had it with those insultingly low rates. I read more and more stories about people walking away from online job boards that cheapen the profession. My agents still stand firm on fair compensation.
As I said in response to Joell, I can see this debate turn to ethics. Financial decisions are ethical decisions. But that’s something I will write about in another sermon to my beloved choristers.
Thanks for adding your voice, Steve! Are you a bass, baritone or a tenor?
After almost 4 months in a hospital/nursing home/hospital bed at home, I don’t know. My vocal cords were damaged by the tubes that they shoved down my throat. Fortunately, it appears that my voice has returned and my diaphragm is getting strong enough to support it again.
I was described as a bass-baritone when I was knockin’ ’em dead, but I always thought of myself as a baritone. Hopefully the youthfulness of my voice will return again so that I can give the kids a run for their money 😉
…and Mark, calling studios to find out what the rates are isn’t education; it’s due diligence – there’s a distinct difference in the business world. Voice-seekers could give a rat’s behind about education from you or from me. …and based on what I’ve read, the P2Ps ARE educating their “customers” to bid LOW.
I’m glad there doesn’t seem to be any permanent damage to your vocal cords. Still, four months is a long time. Hope you’re doing much better now.
Thumbs up for your thoughts, Paul! I totally agree!
Vielen Dank, Christoph. What’s the situation in Europe like?
Hello again
I think someone has mentioned here that the poor voice artist doesn’t have the financial clout to challenge the P2P sites. Well I wonder….
Voices.com boasts that there are over 25,000 members (some of whom will be premium payers, others non-paying listings) Voice123 doesn’t publish the number of subscribers that I can find, but lets say it is 10,000 at a conservative estimate – lets assume that half of that are genuine professionals and are each paying $300 a year (which makes the owners of these two giants very rich indeed). Add in the fees paid to Bodalgo, VoicesPro, Freelancer, VO Pavilion etc., and you have an industry that is fleecing the voice professional to at the absolute minimum, some $105000000 per year…. and you say that we don’t have any financial clout?
Just imagine the scenario… If every professional who believes in proper standards for both voice seekers and voice artists (having contacted their best clients in advance to warn them) were to cancel their paying subscriptions – and drop back onto the free registration/membership listings (the dangling carrot that hooks everyone in the first place) then I think the industry might sit up and listen then don’t you?
Indeed, I didn’t renew my subscription at one of the major p2ps for a variety of reasons, including the fact that I never, ever received a job notice for the $2000+ jobs they promote that they receive. I quit a mom-and-pop p2p because the proprietors oozed Hollywood Attitude. There’s no reason to be at more than one anyway.
I recently found out that voices.com is listening. As of June it is no longer possible for voice seekers to send private invitations for projects below $100. If only that minimum would go up to at least $250!
As Netflix and banks charging for debit cards have experienced over here in the U.S., dissatisfied consumers walking away from a service, have tremendous power. Tens of thousands of people have left Netflix, and banks are still losing trusted customers to credit unions. Don’t tell me the Power of One can’t create a movement!
On the other hand, P2P’s do offer a convenient service to the new, the naive and the lazy. Producers must think they’ve hit the jackpot, because they can find a treasure trove of cheap labor.
After leaving my comment yesterday, I thought about it, of course. Thank you Paul for being the Preacher. I guess I just get tired of it and then feel like no one listens anyway and who am I to tell anyone else what to do. I always come back to my non-confrontational ways and suggest just being a good example. Truth is, without brave souls like you telling it like it is… no one would know that there is a problem. I recently met a woman who wanted to know more about VO. She is a radio and tv talent and I know she currently does it for the cheap. I can’t wait to hook her up with your blog. Thanks again.
That’s very kind of you, Joell. I’ve never been one to accept the status quo as a given. The trouble is: I do have to convince some people that there is a problem, because they’re fine working for bargain basement rates. I can’t manipulate people into realizing that asking for a reasonable rate isn’t such a bad thing.
Time to stop mincing words? When did we start? LOL!
For the record, and I speak as someone who took a job, which looked like a big “F U” to every person I worked with in the 90’s….
Voice123 is one of the smartest group of voice talent out there, so respectfully, back off the talent on this site. I realize none of you have worked here, and that is fine. But for the last four years, a software has been in place to encourage the end of bottom feeding, and on our site, it works, and there are plenty of reasons to hate it. These are the facts about where I work. Believe me if you want, or dont:
1. Voice123 disapproves auditions that attempt to bottom feed.
2. Just because jobs are posted, doesn’t mean they are being auditioned for, and the site I work for has a software that promotes that behavior. Here are some averages from this month.
Average of auditions requested average: 50.4
Average people matched per job: 650.5
Average direct invites per job: 1.6
Average auditions received: 11.5
So, everyone here is now saying that these 11 people are dragging down the industry? I dont think so. I wish I could magically reach out and touch people and say, “Offer more money”, but its not that simple. If you want to coach a thief, tell him better ways to steal. If you dont know what I mean, I cannot explain it further because it involves understanding people and why they do what they do online.
3. Websites deal with low balling too. They compete with Google who can offer anything for free, thereby leading everyone to believe it should be free online. In my opinion, voice talent on P2P sites have a good thing going and should seriously consider what they have before they lose it. You think paying $300 is unfair? Well, what if you make $5000 from a website in one year. What if the website strictly ran on commission, even 10%? Do voice talent realize yet that they have control of these websites because they pay?
The last 20 years for me in voice overs: It has gone from an underground art form to mainstream, and unlike when I started, voice talent seem to want to be known now as public figures. Now, that it is mainstream, saturated, and such, everybody wants to do it……and the more fields of oranges you have growing….the cheaper the OJ gets.
You wont end low balling through organizing online.
You end low balling by “keeping your business relations in the family”, and “staying under the radar”. Unfortunately, websites cant stay under the radar, or they go out of business.
Learn why things changed, copy the idea, transform it, and combine it with other ideas to make it better. We are low balling ourselves the minute we give up and give in to the ideal that someone owes us something simply because we are good at we do.
Change is the only constant in this business. Get with it or get out. Say “boo internet!”, and move on.
No one will ever fess up about how much they really make online because they dont want to deal with the responsibility that comes with it. I am told, “I dont get involved in those discussions because they have much to learn and I have no time for teaching.”
Btw…the reason we dont talk about how we stop low balling…
Why not just tell someone how to break into your house?
We have enough crap to deal with.
Peace and stay flexible. He who is not flexible, only breaks.
I read your posts, Steven, and I wonder what planet you are on.
>>>a software has been in place to encourage the end of bottom feeding, and on our site, it works
First, it’s not software – it’s code. Websites are not software, software is installed on a user’s computer.
So there is code to prevent bottom-feeding on v123. Really? I’m not a paid member, but from all the jobs, notices and crapola that I’ve seen from v123, I don’t believe that it works.
>>>Voice123 disapproves auditions that attempt to bottom feed
Then what’s all that stuff I get in my email about?
>>>Websites deal with low balling too. They compete with Google who can offer anything for free, thereby leading everyone to believe it should be free online.
Oh PLEASE, Steven. You don’t compete with Google and anyone who thinks anything is free online is about 10 years behind the Internet times. We’ve been doing everything in our power to monetize the Internet since the early 90s and we’ve done a DAMNED GOOD JOB – nothing of value is free on the Internet unless the website owners are idiots or just don’t need/want to make money.
The choice of whether to join in and pay up for the P2P sites, Voice123, Voices.com, Bodalgo etc., is of course a personal one and I acknowledge that some voice artists, especially those in the USA, are succeeding in getting work via this system at rates they are happy with and also that some voice seekers appear to be getting good value and good choices.
BUT – and for me it is a very big ‘but’ – there is no personal service at all. No one appears to be checking the audition postings or invitations nor the scripts posted. Too often the script as posted is badly thought-out and badly written, and the voice requirements/descriptions are often totally inadequate and some are just laughable. I particularly liked the ‘Male, English – Any – style, girl next door’ description as allegedly posted on one of the sites recently!’ And by the way, ‘English – Any’ or ‘English – Mid-Atlantic’ is just not a good enough voice description on which to record an audition, it is like pinning the tail on a donkey! And for the artist who is brave enough to audition under these conditions, how soul destroying for them to discover that their audition has never even been opened!
Not that everything is stacked in the clients’ favour either, there are apparently few checks on the quality of voice talent or their ability to self-produce if the many online postings about the number of auditions rejected because of low quality are to believed.
I may not be a paying member of any of the P2P giants (though I am a subscriber to VoicesPro/UK and to PieholeUK where there are plenty of Brit voice audition postings) but over the past four months I have been keeping note of every single posted audition on the major P2P sites for which I might be remotely suitable, and so far, have seen nothing to persuade me – the rates offered are generally very low and jobs for British-English voices are just too few and far between. There has been the odd job that whets the appetite, where the voice seeker obviously knows what they are looking for and has written a proper description and script – but these are rare. I have read so many posts from people whose auditions have never even been opened by the voice seeker, those who have been paying for years and years and have yet to have a successful audition – I could go on… SO, for me there is just no point in subscribing to something that I see as being totally about making huge profits for the casting sites at the expense of the talent. I have no objection to people making profits, but when that profit is made without any regard for others, that I find unacceptable.
But – it appears that the P2P sites are here to stay – at the moment sadly, there doesn’t appear to be a viable alternative – and of course, they are not the worst offenders in this ‘lowballing’ argument. But if the P2P sites do not wish to become tarred with the same brush as ‘Freelancer’ etc., (and before the many obviously unsatisfied artists start cancelling their subscriptions) then surely the answer is in their own hands!
All they need to do is offer a genuine personal service – some suggestions:
How great it would be if generic audition postings, or postings with anomalies, errors and poor scripts or inadequate voice descriptions or those with rates below say $200 were pulled – and the client advised and helped to post an appropriate job invitation.
What a change it would make if there was a proper assessment of the talent registering on the site; if recording quality, resumés and testimonials were checked, and more importantly, if any talent found undercutting the budget posted for a job was fined or prevented from auditioning for upcoming projects for a short period.
If the annual fee was nominal only – say $50 per year, and if the bulk of the charge was paid on a commission basis – with a cut off point somewhere slightly above the current rate of subscription, so that it would be in both the talent’s and the casting sites’ interest to get the best rate possible for the job. And rather than endlessly repeating the ‘well at least you are getting lots of practice by doing all those auditions’ mantra, if the less successful members had their auditions properly and professionally assessed and if proper choices and career advice was given.
Wouldn’t it be better for everyone if all audition submissions were withheld until the closing date and then all opened at the same time, so that those who have other commitments are not penalised because they are unable to audition immediately – there is no guarantee that they would all be listened to of course – but at least everyone would know that they had a fighting chance!
And even better… wouldn’t it be amazing if that flock of flying pigs going past my window right now would land in my garden and mow the lawn for me!
By the way – a serious post script:
During my four month experiment, I did contact various internet casting sites to enquire specifically about work for Brits, only one site (VO Planet)replied honestly about the percentage of work on their site for UK British voices; Thank you Donna. Bodalgo’s Armin Hierstetter was also very helpful but could not give me the details I sought.
Hello Helen, you just about echo every point I’ve ever made about P2P’s. Although they always deny it, they do have a hand in setting rates. Voice talent is 100% responsible for accepting those rates.
A P2P is based on the membership model. In any other club I’ve ever joined, members have a say in the way business is conducted. P2P’s control almost every step of the process, like Kindergarten teachers keeping a grip on their pupils.
Membership clubs seldom change after members have made multiple polite requests. A mass exodus of members might change their minds. Money speaks louder than words.
Paulie, Paulie, Paulie, Paulie…a little chant for the guy in our corner. Thanks for another clear word on the subject Paul. Clears up any foggy notions.
I’m almost tempted to say: “Thanks, Jackie.” On the road of life, fog is a dangerous thing.
Good pupil/student analogy, Paul… very true too!
I have been a Premium Subscriber on Voice123 for over five years. I have acquired many long-term clients and generated thousands of dollars in revenue voicing a variety of projects, the pay always being commensurate with industry standards. To be successful on a P2P site, you must screen casting notices effectively, audition professionally, and bid ethically. If you can do that, good things will happen! If you can’t or won’t, don’t be surprised at the results…
Thanks for your comment, Tom. How would you define “bidding ethically”?
To bid ethically, you need to build a rate sheet using AFTRA, Voice123, Voices.com, other colleagues’ suggestions, and personal experience as guidelines. Then bid on projects within -10% to +10% of the suggested fee on your rate sheet. That way you’re not bidding too low (so as not to undermine the industry and your integrity) and you’re not bidding too high (so as not to take advantage of inexperienced or desperate clients).
If you see a project that you would normally charge $300 and everyone else is bidding $30, then don’t bid and move on. There are plenty of gigs out there!
To be honest, I don’t care what the P2P or freelance sites’ business models are and I don’t care how anyone else bids. If you have the talent and use them the “right” way, you will get good work that pays appropriately.
Now that makes perfect sense to me. Every talent needs to know his/her price floor. Unfortunately, we don’t always know what bid our colleagues have put in, and voice seekers use that to their advantage.
I have never gotten a job…or lost a job based strictly on price. Cost of my production (within reason of course) should not even be a factor.
What a client spends on production compared to the amount he/she spends on running the ad doesn’t even show up on the “scale”.
I have often told a potential client…”Spend 5 cents and piss in the wind, or spend 7 cents and do yourself some good. Cost is (or should be) meaningless…It’s return on investment…what the client should be concerned with. My point is (a bit of exaggeration here…:-) If a client has $10,000.00 to spend for “a flight” and after production he/she can only run the ad one time…BUT, it get the results the client wanted..Bingo!!! That’s all that should count.
I agree, Ray. One of my favorite sayings is: My added value is always higher than my rate.
I can’t say that I never lost a job base on price. First of all, most clients don’t explain why they selected actor A and not B. They don’t have to. Secondly, I want to lose jobs based on price, because my rate is higher.
I have been guilty of #9 (never free though.) When I listen back to the first job I ever did (30 sec. web video for $50) it’s, um…not very good. And it took me a LONG time to produce. Around that same time I landed a higher paying more visible gig that was recorded via phone patch and I suspect they were disappointed with my ability to take direction–I had no real experience with a session like that, except as it’s described in theory. And I didn’t just plug in a USB mic because someone told me I have a nice voice, download Audacity, and get to it…I trained with respected teachers, read everything I could get my hands on about the industry, and had a professionally produced demo BEFORE I started auditioning. I was just green. And ultimately, not happy with the value I gave that client. It just felt more appropriate to go for the lower paying jobs. Is that so wrong? Was I bringing the whole industry down? For me, it was out of respect for the industry that I took those $50 jobs…I didn’t want to charge more than what I thought I was worth at the time. Mind you, as I’ve gained experience, more training, and now that I have a very different product to offer, my rates have gone up accordingly. I no longer work for $50. I do understand the larger scope of the rates issue. And the justified concern. Just sayin, newbies get a lot of flack in this context. Guess I wanted to put in a word for the dedicated on-the-right-path newbie. Isn’t taking the low rates par for the course starting out? And is the flip side the inexperienced newbie who exaggerates their experience and worth with empty self-promotion? I recall you’ve written eloquently about being able to sniff out that hustle pretty easily. Anyway, love the dialog. Great stuff, Paul. 🙂
Hi Jennifer, thank you so much for taking the time to give me an honest response. I think I answered most of your points as I was writing #1 and #9, or I let Jason Fried answer them for me.
In my blog I consistently advocate charging reasonable rates. Of course we can always discuss what we deem to be reasonable and I’m happy to do that too.
To charge $50 (or less) for a $500 job is not reasonable and I don’t think it shows any respect toward the industry. The gap between 50 and 500 is simply too big. If we were talking about $400 for a beginner, that would be a different story.
If you don’t feel you’re worth charging a reasonable rate, why audition for a $500 job in the first place? You’re obviously not ready. Yes, it’s easy to do it for less, but would you go to a surgeon offering a low “breaking into the business fee”?
Some believe auditioning is great practice. I think that’s nonsense.
Never use auditions to hone your skills. Most of us don’t get a second chance to make a first impression. You start auditioning once you know what you’re doing. And those who know what they’re doing have earned the right to ask for a decent rate.
You as one individual are not bringing the industry down, Jennifer. Although all actions have consequences, this isn’t about you. It’s the trend that has me worried: the fact that so many people in similar situations don’t see that they’re part of a bigger picture. The decline of rates is a group effort. That’s the bad news.
Here’s the good news: getting rates to increase is a group effort too!
At the end of the day it’s pretty simple: You’re either part of the problem or part of the solution. You choose!
I have been looking for a way to vocalize what I have been witnessing and thank you for finally putting my thoughts in writing!
I found this in today’s paper and thought it corresponds to what you are saying.
It is an article about how at&t and verizon are trying to undercut each other and putting themselves out of business, while apple gets rich off the price war.
http://www.indystar.com/article/20120220/BUSINESS04/202200338/Can-wireless-carriers-keep-absorbing-costs-offering-customers-iPhones-?odyssey=nav|head
The cell phone war is an interesting analogy, Phil. Advocates of the so-called “free market” always tell me that the system will regulate itself. Although I don’t think that we should over regulate, the forces of supply and demand have no morals. It is survival of the cheapest until there is no profit margin left. At its worst, there is no self-regulation; only self-destruction.
Some days I only see a race to the bottom where products and services are sold at a loss. That -to me- is not a free market. It is a market crushed under tremendous pressure.
Entrepreneurs are supposed to run for-profit businesses instead of being loss-leaders, or is there something I’m not getting?
I think that to level the blame at the voiceover alone is naive.
Voice123, Voices.com, Bodalgo, …, and others, are all equally to blame for the drop in respect – which is directly proportional to the prices people charge.
Creating an auction (cattle market-style) for professional services was never going to serve-well the suppliers of those services – only the auctioneer.
If y’all feel so strongly about it … why do you appear on these sites? Peer-pressure or insecurity?
Now, to be clear – this situation is not as straight-forward as all that.
No matter which industry you’re involved in, there will always be ‘Rolls Royce’ and ‘Kia’.
One has to concern themselves with where they fit into, what amounts to, a perfectly typical and predictable market model. Voiceover, as an industry, is not so special as to escape the inevitable tide – that which has changed most other industries past. It’s happening to software engineers, graphic designers, project managers, tyre fitters, caterers, …, just about everyone.
The interesting question here is not whether a given (maybe naive starter) is under-cutting the real talent – making the industry a cheap place to operate within; but, instead, if there was ever enough of the really ‘cool’, well-paid work for everyone who wants to do this type of thing at all – no matter their motives.
As the internet opens opportunities for budding newbies (and many of those will be serious and perfectly interested in doing the job right, for a commensurate price – every one of those ‘Pros’ today was a newbie once – even if the circumstances were different) – and shrewd portal owners – the number of people attracted (nay, even aware of the opportunity to use their voice) will increase – as one can almost stumble across these online waste-grounds quite by accident.
The industry will polarise, as much as any other has – I wonder if W. O. Bentley, in 1919, was at all bothered by the prospect of Henry Ford’s cheaper take on the automotive industry?
No, I doubt it. There was plenty of room for both calibre of motor vehicle.
He wouldn’t have been – as Ford started-out before Bentley (see what I did there?).
We need only to do with our business what every successful business owner has done since time began …
* Do a fantastic job.
* Make our clients happy.
* Treat people with respect
* Take responsibility for our own mistakes and actions.
* Charge a fair price – which sits in-line with a decent living.
* Get the work done on-time and to-budget (keeping our promises).
* Put as much effort into getting new business as we do serving an existing customer.
* … you can probably fill in anything else.
Those who can afford – or are stupid enough – to charge too little will find the cheap-skate clients … and they’ll both be quite content in each-other’s company, I don’t doubt. Someone’s got to serve the little guys – it was never going to be the expensive Pro, now was it!
If I may: I think we should be far more distracted by advances Text-to-Speech/artificial intelligence and related technology.
Best wishes,
Karl
Paul,
As you’ve known for years, I agree with your points and further I appreciate your passion. I could feel the energy of the beating you gave to your keyboard while you typed this!!!
But there are ignorant people in every sector of business – especially in the freelance media sector who don’t understand business very well but do understand not eating or not making their rent.
So when I think about it, I guess I don’t fear the ignorance of some ‘voice talents’ as much I am concerned about their desperation. We have to bear their burden of their failure (and lack of spine, business knowledge et al) by having to deal with coupon toting clients whose next web site visit will likely be fiver.
Best always,
– Peter
Here’s the thing, Peter: I can’t change their desperation but I can try to influence their ignorance. In fact, that’s one of the reasons I started writing this blog: to inform, to entertain and to light a fire.
Karl: In previous articles I have written about the P2P’s role in declining rates. As players in the VO market, their pricing structure is influencing fees across the board. However, talents are not forced to accept these rates.
I have no problem with people serving the “little guys,” but I have a problem with people charging “little guys” rates to “big guy” companies.