John was a realtor.
The past couple of years had been the toughest ever.
Plenty of prospects; very few buyers. John had to work twice as hard and twice as long to woo aspiring home owners.
One day, his boss called him into the office and by the look on his face, he was not a happy camper. “John,” he said, “Do you have any idea how many leads you lost in the past three months?” “Well, maybe a few here and there,” said John. “I don’t really keep track.”
“What?” answered his boss angrily, “Are you telling me that you’ve spent hours researching homes and showing your clients house after house, and you have no clue how many sales opportunities you missed? Are you serious? How about the Taylors? They seemed ready to buy and they bailed out at the last moment. What went wrong?”
“Oh, I remember them” said John. “They backed out because they said the escrow fee was too high.” “That might be true” said his boss, “but do you want to know what really happened? After you had put in all your time and found them the perfect house, they walked out of our office and contacted the sellers directly. Two days later, the property was sold.”
JUST AN ANALOGY?
Of course I made this entire story up, and yet this scenario happens in voiceoverland each and every day. If you’ve taken a good look at your audition submissions of the past couple of months, doesn’t it seem like a majority has disappeared into a gigantic black hole?
As I mentioned in my first blog about this topic: most of my submissions didn’t result in an actual booking, not because the job was awarded to another talent, but because the voice-shopper never became a buyer. How did I know? Because months after the deadline for a project had past, still no talent had been selected for the job.
It turns out that I’m not alone. Many of you have vented your frustration and are demanding an explanation. That’s why I brought the matter up with three pay-to-play sites. I specifically asked them about their “conversion rate.” That’s the term marketing professionals use when a prospective consumer takes the intended action. I particularly wanted to know the percentage of voice-seekers who had become voice-buyers.
THE INDUSTRY RESPONDS
Mike Gomez works for www.voice123.com. His initial response was:
“We have around 4,000 active Premium subscribers on the site and these are the stats we keep regarding hirings:
50% – book at least 1 a month
30% – book between 1 & 5 a month
20% – book more than 5 a month”
That didn’t tell me anything about the percentage of job offers that actually lead to bookings. So, I tried again and Mike sent me the following reply:
“(…) those are the numbers we have, since we don’t control who gets hired, why and when but only seekers do, we currently have no accurate way to account for this. Although we do know most jobs are granted on the site because we see talents are renewing constantly since our sales have been growing constantly through the months and the only way talents have money to renew is if they get work.”
Let’s do the math here. 4000 Premium subscribers times $299.00 (the voice123 annual subscription fee). That’s one million, one hundred ninety six thousand dollars. Yet, they have no “accurate way to account for who gets hired.”
There’s no doubt in my mind that voice123 has earned its spot in the market place. But the fact that people continue to renew their membership doesn’t tell me a whole lot about the effectiveness of the service voice123 provides. One does not measure the success of a temp agency by the number of job seekers in the database, but by the number of real jobs these people find through the agency.
WHAT VOPLANET ARE YOU FROM?
Donna Summers is the president of VoiceCasting and partner at www.voplanet.com. This is what she told me about her companies’ conversion rate:
“Because we deal with large production companies and ad agencies for the most part, virtually all the auditions we do are for actual jobs. It is rare that an ad agency would take the time, effort and money it takes to put together an ad campaign, hire a copywriter to write the script, get as far as voicing it and then completely dump it.
If one of our talents gets the job, we are of course, thrilled. If the client books elsewhere, we do call and thank the client for the opportunity and ask who booked the job. In answering your question, Paul, I would have to say that 100% with a little margin for error would be the number of auditions that actually become jobs.”
VERIFICATION
As a former journalist, I have to add that there is no independent way of verifying these statements, especially because both companies don’t seem to have a conversion monitoring mechanism in place. There actually is software to keep track of these things. QVC uses it and so does Amazon.com. In fact, most e-commerce site tracks their transactions at least on a daily basis.
So, how would you evaluate whether or not your investment in a particular pay-to-play site is worthwhile? Without a clear conversion rate, you can only base your decision on:
- Previous personal experience
- Anecdotal evidence
- Testimonials & recommendations
- The reputation of the company
- Trust and gut feeling
- The size of your wallet
SLICING THE BREAD
The Dutch philosopher Baruch Spinoza once said:
“Life is like bread – no matter how thin you slice it, there are always two sides.“
In my next installment, you can read the response of the www.voices.com team, as well as the revelations of an “Ad man.”
Hi Paul!
I just wanted to comment here. Obviously, the online world is becoming much, much smaller, and I personally feel the black hole no longer exists. Ironically, I actually remember the day Mike contacted me, and said, ‘You read posts by Paul on Linkedin? No?”. What Mike wrote, I explained to him myself.
The numbers he gave you were the results from surveys Voice123 does each month when we ask people if they have been hired. So, the numbers you see, came from talent reports to us. As for auditions going into a black hole, that is simply not true anymore on Voice123 because of our technology. If you audition on Voice123, I can tell you:
1. When you were sent the email to audition.
2. Who submitted what and when, and when you submitted.
3. When the voice seeker opened it, and that he actually got it.
4. How many they listened to.
5. The seeker’s history of posting projects.
How do I know who booked?
1. The seeker writes me after a feedback email.
2. The talent writes me and thanks me.
Basically, Voice123 makes no bones about the fact that we are not an agency. So, you get to be your own business, never worried that one of our staff intervened, and may have cost you work. We are as transparent as they come, so if anything ever goes wrong that we have caused, we fix it. Now, if someone thinks they have a fool-proof way of verifying everyone…I will not believe them. It is simply too easy to lie on the internet.
We found that the more we intervened to make sure that ‘they were real jobs’, the more we found the office assistant was posting a job for his/her boss at a major motion picture company, and our interference costs you work. We simply are the most well-known, copied, online casting site, and we have over 1500 jobs come through our site a month. Has anyone ever done the math that if the same people belong to the very same sites, that the site with less work, means less work for more people?
So, where does verification take place for us…it is both proactive and reactive. I do most of it. I used to be a fraud investigator, a talent on Voice123, a talent on the other sites for 2 years, a VO talent since 1992, worked for an agent, and I have the street smarts & computer knowledge to help more people than you may be aware of right now. I am not selling you a line either.
Voice123 is definitely a new playground for many, but you have more people watching out for you than you realize because you now belong to it. Each website has its own personality, and works in its own way. It just depends what is your cup of tea.
Your math is a little off. Probably 200-400 of the 4000 are people on free trials. About a year ago, we started screening talent before they went premium or got free trials. What that means for you…is that you have more competition than you ever did before, no matter what site you are on.
You are also in the most competitive voice category online: Male, 35-55, experienced, and good. My point is…Voice123 is not the issue, neither is any other site. It is a saturated market of great pros, right now. I know because I hear them everyday, and it is fascinating how many do not understand this.
I am curious…what you say here: “How did I know? Because months after the deadline for a project had past, still no talent had been selected for the job.” How do you know that no talent was selected for the job? I am not sure if you are aware of this, but there is a silent majority out there that email me everyday, and tell me they do NOT want us to display that they have been awarded jobs. Why?
They find it gives away what they are doing right, and displays how much money they make. The only time I write about it, is when the talent has given me expressed written consent.
This type of verification falls short as well:
1. Previous personal experience
Why? Because online casting is 6 years old, and involves a new way of doing business. Perceptions of how things were once done do not apply. The mindset of the buyer using a computer escapes a great many, who believe their 20 or 30 years experience will automatically translate. I speak from experience, being there and back.
2. Anecdotal evidence
I have to admit. This escapes me as to how it would be evidence.
3. Testimonials & recommendations
I have seen so many lies to sell websites, you cant trust testimonials. Word of mouth is always best.
4. The reputation of the company
That’s why I write so many personally. There is more going on than you seem aware of.
5. Trust and gut feeling
Gut feelings only carry you as far as you are informed. I hear many comment that know so little about online casting, that it worries me others believe it.
6. The size of your wallet
That is what free trials are for. If you cannot make the money back in 30-60 days from auditioning, it is best to hold off spending money on a subscription until more research is done.
All the best to you. Write me anytime!
Hi Paul,
As a professional in the field since 2001, the year I created my VO demo and got an agent, I feel the purpose of your scrutiny is to find ways and means for the artist to be a better business person by evaluating our business expenses / investments like on-line audition sites.
Being that my field, before VO, was sales / marketing / advertising, I had a lot of experience with business budgeting and tracking, including understanding the value of measuring your marketing investments so you can become more savvy to what is worth your investment.
Point One: As VO artists, each of us can better build our business by understanding our ‘conversion rates’ with our on-line investments in Voices.com, Voice123.com or others like VO Planet or Bodalgo. Unfortunately, it appears that these sites do not consider this value for the VO artist, or it would be provided in their metrics. Until on-line services can provide their VO artist subscriber who is essentially their bread & butter (not the producers) metrics that show conversion rates, we are not being fully served.
Point Two: Now that it is 2009 and on-line casting / auditioning is a real business with some decent companies handling a majority of business, it’s time to evolve to the next level with appropriate metrics. Metrics can be provided by augmenting the current operational systems on-line so that the appropriate tracking can be executed. Yes, this will take some financial investment of the on-line company. If they are smart they will see the value.
Paul – thanks for pursuing this.
Sincerely,
Rebecca Michaels
http://www.LoveThatRebecca.com
Twitter: RebeccaMichaels
Hi Rebecca,
I think that is a bit much to say these sites do not value voice over talent. The exact reasons that we do not have numbers as to who is hired all the time are the following:
1. When you create technology, which Voice123 is working on, you still have to trust that the other human being using the interface will use it. I was a heavy seller on ebay for years, and many times, I had to chase people down to leave feedback. It does not mean people do not value you. Your subscription fee pays for the heavy amount of Internet marketing we do, which gets you found better than anyone on Voice123.
2. Some people prefer privacy. They do not want the world to know they are booking. As well, some seekers hiring like to keep their choices private because they fear how many talents they will upset when they make their choice.
3. People contacted thru Google: They find you on Voice123, then email you thru our site, and hire you. How is Voice123 supposed to keep track of your personal business this way? I will say, that coming soon, we will be displaying more statistics via email (if you can stand another email from us haha).
Basically, with all the technology out there, you still have the human element. Voice123 can create the technology. The decision to use it…that’s up to the users (and you cannot force anyone to use a website).
Paul,
Fantastic job as always. My question is actually more for Steven since he’s part of the current thread…
At the beginning of the article, you quoted an e-mail from Mike Gomez that read:
“We have around 4,000 active Premium subscribers on the site and these are the stats we keep regarding hirings:
50% – book at least 1 a month
30% – book between 1 & 5 a month
20% – book more than 5 a month”
My question is about how those stats are calculated? The reason I ask is that, unless my math is off, Mike is stating that all of the Premium subscribers book at least once a month. As a Premuim subscriber myself, I can assure you that that math is incorrect. Since joining the site back in mid-late November of last year, I have booked precisely 2 (two/dos/deux/zwei) jobs on Voice123.
By no means is it due to a lack of trying – I’ve auditioned 179 times since November 25 of 2008. While it’s true that at least some of those were jobs that I should NOT have auditioned for based on desired vocal range/style – 2 jobs in 9 months does not equate to “at least 1 a month”.
Consequently, are those stats based on a talent receiving a rating of “likely hiring” or something else?
Thanks,
-Mike
http://www.mikemcgonegal.com
So, who can shed some light on the stats presented by voice123? Voice Actor Joe J Thomas took on the challenge. He wrote:
“Actually Paul, I can verify them quite easily. Not only are they improbable, they’re impossible.
Let me elaborate:
1) They can’t tell who really books a job – the information is not in their system.
2) I’m a premium member – I don’t book 1 per month. According to this, 100% of their 4,000 premium members book at least 1 job per month.
These “statistics” just don’t add up:
50% book 1/month (50% X 4,000 = 2,000 X 1 job = 2,000 jobs)
30% book 1-5/month (30% X 4,000 = 1,200 X 2 jobs = 2,400 jobs)
20% book > 5/month (20% X 4,000 = 800 X 6 jobs = 4,800 jobs)
Total jobs booked per month = 9,200 jobs
… which is really interesting since the average total jobs posted per month this year is less than 950:
•January(803)
•February(845)
•March(1023)
•April(982)
•May(933)
•June(1076)
•July(945)
Gee, they’re only off by 90% or so!
Ok, to be fair, let’s give them a larger benefit of the doubt.
Let’s say they meant the following instead:
50% don’t book any jobs – out of the remaining 50% that do book:
30% book 1-5/month (30% X 4,000 = 1,200 X 1 job = 1,200 jobs)
20% book > 5/month (20% X 4,000 = 800 X 6 jobs = 4,800 jobs)
That’s still 6,000 jobs booked per month… just a tad short of the 950 jobs posted per month, no?
And that’s not even taking into account the jobs that never see the light of day, ones that pay squat, or don’t pay at all.
I wanna say that I’ve seen it all from V123, but they never cease to amaze me.”
Thanks for crunching the numbers, Joe!
Paul,
Great post. You’ve got us all waiting on pins and needles for the next installment!
Jamee
You pay for a service, but then find out your limited to use the service you pay for. If they send you 6 auditions in two days, they now say you can’t submit to all of those.
Why does this sound a little wrong. I’m searching the find law site for the correct wording under NJ & NY laws since they are licensed in NJ, but state they are under NY law.
For the two days in question from their web site.
# Sep 09, 2009(42)
# Sep 10, 2009(66)
Submitting 7 auditions only comes out to 6.49% submission rate of all jobs received.
An email by Mike Gomez v123 after being question why a job could not be submitted to after the switch to premium service.
Thank you for contacting us.
Although you matched it, you were not amongst the best matches because of the following reason. According to your stats:
Since Sep 09, 2009 you have submitted 6 auditions and proposals.
During this same time period, all Voice123 Premium Subscribers that also speak English – North American have submitted an average of 0.36 auditions and proposals (approx.)
As such, during the same period of time, you have submitted 1566.67% more auditions and proposals than other Premium Subscribers that also speak English – North American.
Since the opportunities to audition are limited and all talents pay the same fee, we keep a fair distribution of them to be even to all talents. This is why you you have and will be invited less for a while.
Jim, that’s one of the fundamental flaws of the much despised “SmartCast” system, and it seems to be one of the big reasons why people don’t renew with voice123. It’s truly amazing that a company, making over one million dollars in annual membership fees alone, is purposefully restricting their members from using the service they have paid for. It’s like renting an office for a year, but only being allowed in at certain times because other people are using the same facilities. It makes no sense whatsoever.
What voice123 is really saying is that they’ve accepted too many members and there aren’t enough jobs to keep everybody happy. Instead of using our membership fee to attract more voice-seekers, they limit the flow of talent under the guise of “being fair”.
I don’t know anyone in this profession who is happy with a system that actively undermines and limits our chances to compete in the market place in a fair and open way. Rather, it punishes us for doing so. Throwing us a bone every now and then, is not the way to run a successful service.
At the end of the day it’s very simple. If customers don’t like they way they’re being treated in a store, they’ll start shopping somewhere else. I recently went to a new supermarket. What I found out was this: not only were the prices better, the customer service was superb and the selection was so much wider. Why did I wait so long to make my move?
Paul,
That’s my take exactly! I’ve written several emails to Voice123 about the smartcast system…this is a numbers game…the more auditions you go on, the better your chances of getting hired. I wrote specifically and asked why I was being penalized for auditioning? They couldn’t answer…
When my subscription expires next month, I will not be re-upping.
Any suggestions for sites? LOL
Thanks for the interesting article Paul. I’m looking forward to seeing what Stephanie says. I’m not with Voices123 mostly because I can’t afford to pay then a one lump sum to be part of the system and two I don’t like the limited number of jobs I can apply for.
Currently I’m only making enough to work with Voices.com. I can tell you that on average I do about 15 auditions a day. I’ve been doing this steadily with them since November 09. In that time I’ve gotten contacted about 7 times and hired 5. One of those people who hired me, choose to speak to me apart from the site because he couldn’t afford a hundred dollar minimum and because of the nature of the job I chose to work with his budget. Luckily, he has turned into a recurring client who had brought me to many of his peers attention.
I don’t know what the math works out to – I’m horrible at math – so someone else can figure out what my conversion rate is based on the numbers I gave you but that’s been my experience with Voices.com. I’ve continued to work with them because on average I’ve managed to get 1 job a month with them, I like that I can pay them a small fee monthly and I like that they get a large number of jobs in and I can audition for as many of them as I like.
But you are correct, a HUGE number of those jobs are black holes. I wish there was a mechanism to see when someone was hired for a job I applied for. I don’t need to know who got it, just that it was filled would be good enough for me. That would give me more of an idea of how many clients are just seeing what is out there and how many are actually filling positions.
Kimi