Yeah, V123 has many OK submissions, but it’s all been absurd. When you want a voice, go to V123 & stop when you get someone useable. That will still work.
But why the hell would someone even audition for a gig that pays $125? I mean, how much work did I create? Many of the auditions were custom – meaning that they spent time. How do you track it?
On LinkedIN, I am getting “what did you think of my reel” messages already. Absurd to think that all I do is sit around looking at their reel. LinkedIn was worse than V123.
Hi Chris, thanks for giving me a golden opportunity to share some of my thoughts on this business! I have seen examples your work, and you certainly know how to get a message across in an enticing and entertaining way. I’m not surprised your videos increase conversion. To the uninitiated, your rate might seem a bit high, but business insiders know better. In a visual word, video as a means of telling a story is becoming more and more important. It takes talent to translate words and complex concepts into images that are easily understood. You and Jason are nailing it!
I’m sorry to hear that your appeal on LinkedIn led to an experience that “was worse than v123”. Many friends and colleagues belong to that group, and as you have noticed, there is no shortage of talent hoping to catch your attention. It’s a buyer’s market.
In my philosophy, it makes total sense to outsource part of your business and focus on what you do best. Experienced agents will listen to you describe the voice you’re looking for, and they’ll quickly scan their internal database for voices that would be a good fit. It takes them a minute or two, to come up with a couple of names (as opposed to 42 hours!). I won’t make any assumptions about your hourly rate, but I don’t think that finding one good voice is worth 42 times whatever you make in 60 minutes.
Chris and Paul, thanks to you both for sharing this information and experience. I SO appreciate the perspective of someone on the other side of the mic, who’s trying to cast. It confirms for me (among many other things) that if I am not one of the first 10 people auditioning for a P2P site job, I will not even bother. And it’s so important to get the word out about the importance of paying enough for a seasoned, professional voice talent. Anyway, I could go on and on about how helpful all this is, but instead I’ll just tweet and FB it!
Your right Paul, the only ones that seem to benefit financially are the owners of the P2P sites themselves. I have had far better results when I network on my own through FB, twitter and linkedin…now I’ve been shortlisted for a book deal from acx!
An interesting post (as always) Paul. While it’s not a key issue in your argument, or even the point of your post, there’s one calculation that I think may be off the mark a bit. You said:
“Of course it’s unusual to get 500 auditions for one job, so why not assume that Chris Johnson has to weed through (only!) 100 demos. If he spends 5 minutes on each talent, this will still take him eight and a half hours!”
5 minutes per talent? If every talent were of top quality and in the range that the client was looking for… maybe. But not likely. Most clients can tell if it’s “the right voice” within 5 to 10 seconds. Add a little time for a download or opening a file.. but still… a savvy client who knows what they want could review all those within an hour. And it would be time well invested if the right voice can increase their profit, right?
Again.. not a big deal, but a slight exaggeration perhaps.
I agree that there is a down side to some of the P2P sites as you’ve expressed, but I’m not ready to demonize them or discount their value entirely. If a talent is selective with their time and auditions, there are the occasional diamonds in the dust.
And who’s to say that the mass of mediocre mic jockeys don’t make the good talent sound GREAT by contrast and actually INCREASE their odds of getting the gig? 🙂
Coming from the King of Killer Demos, I have to agree with you on the average time spent listening to a reel… unless it was produced in your studio, of course! That’s always worth listening to. I was merely quoting Chris.
Just as Chris has been adding up the time needed to listen to sound samples, every talent should keep a log of all the time spent recording auditions for P2P’s in a year. Then he or she should look at how much money was earned (after deduction of membership fees), as a result of those auditions, and find out how much was made per hour. That’s one way to determine ROI.
Yes, there are definitely online opportunities and that’s why I am still a member of a few of these sites. But I am highly selective.
Lastly, it’s not my intention to demonize a service. I do think their value is decreasing as fast as their talent base is growing.
Dave and Paul – I caught this too – it’s extremely unlikely that anyone will have a 5 min demo either. Chris was clearly not happy to be inundated and was not expecting that kind of workload. Was he meaning that it was a 5 min avg review per talent? That seems generous. I would consider to change the math for more realism because that really does stand out as irregular. Or maybe give an alternative generic example of 30 sec of listening per demo plus some buffer zone for sorting through the whole set of submissions and note taking. I think the results still add up to the same but will seem realistic.
Oh and Dave, it’s probably a nice idea to think that the bad talent makes the good talent shine, but it still seems like the audition inundation to the producer gets their eyes foggy!!? ;0)
Even if Chris were to give each demo 60 seconds of his time, he’d still be better off with an experienced agent. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, and why not focus on what we do best, and outsource the rest?
Thanks for the kind words regarding the demos, Paul. As you menioned in your reply, I made a point to keep track of how many auditions I was submitting to the sites (as well as other time devoted to agent leads, cold calls, etc) and tracked the ROI. It caused me to be even MORE selective with the P2P auditions.. and it’s payed off. I think you hit on it. The key to the P2P sites is to BE SELECTIVE.
Thanks for the wonderfully precise example Paul! And thanks to Chris too, for sharing. I agree with Paul that Agents are much better suited to assist a professional project than a P2P.
I’m not sure that P2P will blow up any time soon unless the one-off or novice producers stop posting there and thus auditions dry up… so until then!
For the professional level of VO, I’ve never really believed that P2P offered anything. I think this illustrated that belief’s accuracy.
One point not mentioned as it’s sort of the ‘next’ conversation, but VO Agents have been struggling during the last several years… or at least that’s my impression. Has P2P cost them in some ways – or is it the economy – or both?
This story was high-larious. I was in the airport reading the Voice Over Guide or some such title written by a guy from V123 and he was advising his readers about the value of high speed Internet to voice over. Really, someone has to be told that? Those p2p talents must be mighty green.
As long as there are coupons and BOGO’s there will be somebody looking for price as the deciding factor on their VO gig. It’s the wrong place to cut corners but Ive just decided that the cheapskates aren’t my prospects. Fair price for great value clients are. God bless the wanna be’s.
This is really interesting Paul. I do agree with Dave that spending 5 minutes on a talent would be a stretch. Most demos I receive are lucky to get more than 10 seconds of my time. I usually know within that time if its worth listening to for another 10 or more.
It really goes to show how important finding the right voice is to your bottom line.
Do we really have ten seconds to impress you, Dan? All this time I have been carefully crafting five minute custom demos…. I could have saved so much time!
Seriously, people get more time on America’s got talent!
Paul and Chris,
Thanks for the insight! My experience with P-to-P sites has been, well…not-so-much. My first work was a corporate video, and the second a voice recognition software company…hmmm. But, recently, through ACX, I’ve landed a SCI-FI audio book. While it’s certainly a much longer road/read, you don’t get winded running from watering hole to watering hole with the rest of the herd…you get to spend more time finessing the piece. Sound like sour grapes? Not really. Everybody keeps telling me that I’ll find my niche…
I’ve limited my email notifications at Voices.com to those above $250. My membership for the year has been paid for… As a wise VO said to me recently in a heavily compressed, gravelly voice…’I don’t even get out of bed for less than $300!’.
My concern in all of this is that the front end loading of talent factories hasn’t slowed down, because the word is out that ‘VO’s the place to be…it’s an easy life, and you can work from home, and…’
It reminds a little of the reels from American Idol and America’s got Talent…Hundreds and hundreds of people pushing and shoving to get to the head of the line for a shot at that one spot…Whew!
I think I’ll swim in the opposite direction for a while…maybe when the crowd figures out I’m gone, they’ll wonder where…and I’ll have already arrived.
Congratulations on your ACX deal, Phil. There are so many ways to land a job in the wonderful world of voiceovers. There is life after P2P’s…. but maybe not as we have come to know it!
Thank you – thank you – thank you…… Paul. I have felt like a voiceover crying in the Wilderness for SO long!
I am now almost two weeks through my 3 month P2P experiment. So far I have been notified of 5 auditions by one site, (which as a non-paying member I have not been allowed to submit for) they were all were very low budget – and put it like this… were I casting them, I would not have cast me. On the one site where I have paid a minimum subscription I have been invited to submit for three auditions including an animal voice over – (not on my list of accents – sorry) but not for a medical information project looking for a mature, trustworthy and believable UK voice (Describes me to a T). I have submitted a further two auditions via this site, neither of which has been opened by the voice seeker! The one other interesting invitation which was posted in the US at 2.00am (UK time) and was already over subscribed therefore closed to new submissions by the time I got up that morning.
I have submitted four auditions (via the one site that allows you to audition without paying – VoicesPro. One of which has not been opened by the voice seeker; one client has sent an e-mail saying thanks but no thanks and there has been no response from the other two.
So far I don’t think I will be rushing to pay any further subs.
It is hard and unfair to generalize an individual experience, but one thing sticks out each and every time the subject of P2P’s comes up. Many colleagues seem to believe that this system benefits voice seekers more than it benefits voice talent.
Secondly, they see a link between rates getting lower and the rise of P2P’s. Every single year, the cost of living goes up. Have you seen the P2P voiceover rates go up in past couple of years?
Chris Johnson is selling his short videos for 33,000 dollars each. I’m sure that in that chunk of money, there is something put aside for a good voice.
A little addition to the audition experiment – I have now been sent two reminders that I can submit an audition for the animal impersonation VO! They have apparently received fewer submissions than the voice seeker is expecting to receive (now there’s a surprise) and it would be ‘a good opportunity for me’! Really? Well at least it raised a smile!
Hi Helen,
Enjoyed reading about your P2P experiment 🙂
I noticed the Animal impersonation audition too. If I am thinking of the same one you are mentioning, it had a red flag to me: it was too nondescript, meaning, I think it is an audition that can too easily be used as end product by the voice seeker. That might be the reason they got so few auditions.
Kind regards,
Linda
thanks for this article which makes me even more certain that bodalgo does not fit in this picture. Simply because of the fact that we do NOT let everybody with a credit join our community, there are hardly any jobs at all that get even near 100 auditions.
Also: Because of our “pickyness”, the amount of voice seekers is growing faster than the amount of talents which keeps the balance “number of jobs vs. number of premium talents” at a very healthy stage, I’d say.
And there is something else that helps going down that road: On average skilled vo talents WILL nail jobs, amateurs won’t. Maybe it’s only me, but I want …
1. professional voices that get jobs
2. voice seekers that are happy with the voice talents
What I don’t want:
1. Amateurs that never nail jobs and keep complaining and blaiming the website for this instead of facing the truth that they are just crap. Period.
2. Voice seekers that book an amateur and are horribly unsatisfied afterwards. They will turn their back on bodalgo forever. We can not let that happen.
So, in a nutshell: Paul, I like you, but I’m not afraid at all that bodalgo will implode. And maybe that simply because of the fact that we never grew exponentially, the opposite is quite true: bodalgo’s growth rate is rather slow. And it will take time, time, time to get reputation in the industry for being a place where there are professional talents only.
Likes attract, Armin, and that’s why I like Bodalgo.
I made sure to write that “most Pay to Plays will eventually implode.” The observant reader will have noticed that I was reminded of my interview with you while contemplating the downside of almost automatic membership.
There’s always an exception that proves the rule, and in this case I believe that Bodalgo is it. Quality trumps quantity.
I agree with folks’ endorsement of Bodalgo, and Armin’s comment here is supported by my experience with this particular P2P.
Paul, you’ve got quite a lively conversation going here on P2Ps and the biz in general. Clearly a lot of talent are appreciating the chance to say “Amen”!
Thank you so much for this Paul (and Chris)! It’s candid conversations like these (as opposed to the sales messages we’re used to) that really build our industry and creative community!
I think most novice talent (and some beyond that level) still don’t seem to get that this is an entrepreneurial endeavor, not just a search for “jobs”. That’s what’s keeping those P2P’s going – the supply of “jobs” and the belief that you must be dependent on a gatekeeper to build your career.
Every truly successful voice talent I know (and composer – I see it on the music side of the coin, too) has built their business on a foundation of networking, smart strategy and marketing, and ELBOW GREASE. They know who their client IS (which is a real biggie if you’re depending only on what leads come to you, because it allows you to seek out opportunity so much better), so they’re able to get on the phone, go to events, and spend their online time at the places that make the most impact.
So why don’t more do it? Because it takes TIME. I just today sealed up a strategic partnership I started building over a year ago. I have many other stories just like that. It’s not as easy as pulling out the credit card and having my inbox fill up immediately. But then again, once you start in, neither are the P2P’s…
Hey Dana, congrats on sealing that deal! As they say: it usually takes many years to become an overnight success. This isn’t instant oatmeal.
P2P’s have made it very easy to be in this business. We pay our membership; put up a profile with a few demos and then we just wait for the job offers to arrive in our in-box. It’s exciting and you can even do it in your spare time…
We -who have been around the block a couple of times- know that this is just an illusion. Being self-employed can be tough. Very tough. Having to deal with uncertainty all the time; getting our hopes up and giving our very best… only to never hear back after we sent out that brilliant demo.
I am not complaining. To me it’s part of the package. Most people have to learn the hard way that Elbow Grease is not something you can buy off the shelves at Target. It comes from within!
Very, very interesting here Paul. Although, I’m not sure you impressed anyone from Voices or Voice123. I notice an absence of there comments.
I just recently renewed my membership in both Voices and Voice123.
When I first started out with Voice123 more than 6 years ago, it was absolutely the best thing to happen in my career regarding finding work.
Each year I look at the ROI and it seems to be decreasing. I’m also aware that these sites have become overloaded with weak or just plain cheap talent. At the same time, I feel guilty not at least reading through each lead that is sent to me… all week long. Something has got to give here! I like your “balloon” analogy. I’ve been watching these sites trying to gauge the activity level and evaluate there true reality.
You’ve given me more food for thought on this. Maybe I need to take a more professional approach to them. I just read where someone says that they only respond to private audition requests. Maybe that’s a good way to go.
At any rate, the most important thing I try to do is separate myself from other talent … to stand out front. I think I’ve got a unique sound to start with and a good sense of the business. It may be time to contemplate some big changes.
I’m sure that P2P sites are going to be a MAJOR topic at Faffcon3. I’m looking forward to discussing this with you and many others up there.
I’m sure we’ll discuss many things at Faffcon and yes… P2P’s will be on the agenda. Meanwhile, I am trying to rock and roll the boat a little bit. Others are trying to build a bridge over troubled water.
We have done a number of interviews with casting directors and producers at Internet Voice Coach (of which Paul is a regular contributor) and one of the questions I always like to ask them is: how many auditions do you usually listen to for any given project?
Granted, these producers/directors are almost always going through an agent, but I was still initially surprised by the answer: 5 to 10 auditions. I always thought it was closer to 50.
I ask them, how many people do you actually have auditioning? Again, the answer is 5 to 10. So they are listening to every audition sent to them (5 to 10) and choosing from among those.
Now I ask them the benefit of using an agent over a P2P sight or another alternative.
Their answers (and it’s amazing how consistent they are) go something like this (I am paraphrasing, but just barely):
“I have developed a trust with the agencies. They know my projects and what I like in a voice. I trust them to do that work for me. That’s their job and and they do it well. I like only having to listen to a few voices, knowing I’m going to find what I want, and if an agency has done their homework in representing a talent, then I’m also expecting a professionalism that I wouldn’t otherwise get, necessarily.
It’s both cost and time effective for me; I know the voice (and the professionalism) of the actor will be of high-quality.
So we pay more for a voice through an agent, and they (the agent) get their 10% on top of that, but letting them find the right voices for me is huge. I don’t want a voice that’s “good enough.” I want a voice that’s great and will help the project or campaign do great things.
If nickel and dimeing everyone is your business philosophy, then that is what your project is going to end up being worth.”
I have been very heartened by the producers I’ve talked to (and their business acumen), as this is the way I have made my living as a VO actor for 25 years. I like to be paid what I am worth, because I am giving them worth in the voice and the product they expect. Reciprocity is a very civil and energizing thing.
I assume the pendulum will eventually swing away from the fad of P2Ps, although I don’t believe they will just go away. People who have minuscule budgets for tiny projects will always find someone who is “good enough” for their needs.
The important work will stay with the agencies, and with VO actors who have created repeat business clients through hard work and good will.
Thanks for offering your perspective, Dave. Since people can find us on the same page -literally- it is no secret that I also draw from your insights and experience when I come up with these blogs.
Some of my conclusions might be based on pure speculation, but I do have some very well-informed sources. I am happy to say that you’re one of them!
I know casting directors and the way it works when most people listen to demos everyday as a job, they only listen to the first two seconds “get our attention before we can get the mouse to the x” okay, the quote isn’t perfectly verbatim, but it is basically what was said. With that said, p2p is worth giving a try. Why? If they dislike you in the first two seconds that will be marked as reviewed, if they like you in the first two seconds they’ll listen longer and you’ve got a shot! I’ve noticed that once there is over 100 demos submitted on voices, the people hiring stop reviewing. I was auditioned on the spot for zambezia, a film in production coming out this year or next & this was in person. My point is if they like you they’ll know in the first two seconds and may audition you on the spot, if they don’t like you, you won’t hear from them. Simple!
I always encourage people to give something a try before they pass judgment. That’s why I have been a member of most P2P’s for at least a year. If I wanted to write about them, the least I could do was getting to know them from the inside. And let’s be honest: if they did not meet a need, they’d be out of business by now. But staring into my crystal ball, I just can’t see a very bright future for this model.
Haven’t commented on these blogs in a while haha! Anyway, you raised some really great points in this article and the articles that you have written about pay-to-play sites. As I personally am still only pursuing to to get into the voiceover field and haven’t actually done professional work yet, it helps to have the kind of insight that you give in these articles!
There is a different way for seekers to find voice talent on the pay to play sites.
Search voices and listen to some demos. Fine a few to your liking and then, send those talents invitations to audition with your copy. It’s much more productive than simply putting it out to the masses, which include all levels of talent. Like radio contest players, some people must have set ups to make them quick to respond — so their auditions appear first. Doesn’t mean they are more suitable than people who come later. That is eliminated by screening the demos in advance.
Thanks for that, Michael. Your method still requires weeding, and I can’t imagine where to begin on a site like voices.com with thousands of members.
I would like voice seekers to be more precise in telling us what they’ll be listening for (instead of: Male/English). A more detailed description helps voice talent to determine whether or not they’re suitable for the job.
Paul (and Chris), this article has really hit the nail right in the HEAD! I’m not against P2P’s at all, but there are some that just don’t respects VO talents, the VO industry, not even themselves. For example, I receive a notification from one of them to do a Spanish VO for NATIONAL TV :30 seconds SPOT IN THE UNITED STATES, plus translation from English to Spanish (which I do…for a fee)…and the client was offering only $400 dollars for that job. Are you kidding me? I think that any VO talent that respect their profession will charge four figures for that kind of job. My formula is simple: If you have money to pay a National TV campaign in the US, then you also have money to pay me what I’m worth…PERIOD. Also, I did never see in that P2P site a Spanish VO job that pay more than $500 dollars. In fact, I did not renew my subscription with that P2P because it just doesn’t make sense. For us Spanish VO talents, is especially difficult to get a decent job (whatever that means) in a P2P site. I don’t want to miss something about the same P2P I was talking about. In a section of their site where they tell the voice seekers how much they can expect to pay for a VO job, you find a so-called movie trailer demo that evidently was not recorded by a movie trailer experienced talent and that has the tag “$500 USD” in case the campaign is on National TV in the US. Again…Are you kidding me? I know there are people that charge five figures for a movie trailer VO. Things like that one let me know that these companies, especially that one, DON’T respect us all and they not know what the heck they are doing…for me, it’s offensive that a P2P is low balling the jobs themselves. I hope my comment adds an interesting perpective from a Spanish VO talent.
Are we getting paid or are we being played? Some clients use these sites to prey on ignorant newcomers that are hoping to break into the business. These are the folks that crowd the forums and ask basic questions, hoping that a pro will do their homework.
P2P’s will tell you again and again that they’re not in the business of setting rates. They leave that up to “the market”. They certainly facilitate supply and demand and in that respect they are “enablers”.
Every voice talent deserves respect and a decent income… no matter his or her background, nationality, language or upbringing.
Rick,
I wanted to respond, but held back. I get accused of being a walking sales-pitch for my company, but because you asked, let me reply.
I just wish to run down a list of things here as to why this blog is well…just wrong:
1. The people commenting negatively either have not used our site in more than 2 years, or never at all. I believe some asked me to take their profiles down too. I have been here 4 years, have a killer memory, and used all sites for 2 years prior. Funny…I think Armin used our site more than Paul, actually. Paul is less likely to work on our site due to the lack of jobs for Dutch talent.
2. Truth about us:
a. ONLY 10 people on average audition per job/ 75-80% of the auditions are opened.
b. We changed business models in 2007. Our competition did not. To say, “We are becoming diluted” is an issue we dealt with a long time ago; not all liked the way we did it, or like it now, and too many never learned how we did it to see we have a pro tier system built in.
c. The software, love it or hate it, has a tier system built into it to promote smart auditioning IMHO. The talent on our site are VERY talented and very smart. Of course, you have some who create webpages on a whim, but some also think our site is a news periodical. (Village Voice…get my point?) That doesn’t cost anyone work, and it never will.
d. True, someone can pay and sign up, but when they quickly find out we operate nothing like a ‘beginner site’ we get refund requests, OR the person sticks it out to see what they can learn from the site and the smart people using it. It is cheaper than a coaches class, and we offer customer service to everyone…even those who don’t pay, and those who don’t like us. We do not turn away because someone needs help; something agents and unions should think about in this “WE” generation.
e. I can read blogs in airports too and pretend I know whats going on, but I made a choice to get my hands dirty 4 years ago and find out what really happens. It makes for a lonely day or two, but this career has always been competitive. In regards to that, if you think people running these sites are not creative and don’t know the industry, you are already behind. For whatever way they choose to run their business, no one is “green”.
f. I have been contacted by agents through our search feature, as well as other talent and union jobs are posted on our site with software that makes sure only union talent are invited. A big challenge is that some talent need to understand how to make a job union on their own, but this is info the union must provide, and we hope they will. In addition, granted it happened twice, but an agent has asked me before to find them SAG voice talent in NYC.
g. All of the above…made me no commission, and that is perfect. If we were paid commission, talent would pay us more than our yearly fee anyway, and they are smart enough to know that we are kinda cool as a tax write-off.
h. Auditions on our site that pay little, get auditions from people with little experience. The same holds true for the opposite, and the software supports that behavior, which is how we have a tier system.
Now…I will give you my personal prediction on what will implode first: Blogs containing information that serves no one but the writer, and his/her inner circle without fact-checking.
The main reason is this: When people have discovered their purpose, and that purpose is positive, it will forever be stronger than something that doesn’t. If what we/I personally promise actually gets professionals work, I have made my point, and we already have for many people.
I have been around VO’s for 20 years now, and my 20’s were filled with bull***t artists, bullying agents, casting directors, and at times, bullying unions (which I dont like to say because I do believe the ideal of unions is very positive). Maybe some like that life-style, but I know plenty who did not.
I have also worked with famous companies with low moral/ethical codes. I survived an empty NYC VO business for 3 years after 9/11, and reconnected with good people in 2004 who showed me how voice overs had changed. Yet, I immediately saw why they changed because someone offered them a way out of that ‘old way’.
Before working where I do now, I worked for a company that showed me that all the money, professionalism, and big talk in the world can still be a company filled with very bad people. I work with good people. I am here now because it is an opportunity to make some real positive change. I have already spent enough time studying my failures and others. It is only when I study how to improve that positive things happen, and they always will be. They always will be… and I say that twice to let you know things change based around the positive actions of smart talent who know what they are doing online, and do not need agents, BUT they will gladly work with them too. They set the tier system in their minds, whether they blog about it or not. And there you go…for once…voice talent have options.
By the way, whether they wanted to comment or not, I dont know…but our competition had a new baby today, I believe. If anything, the biggest mistake professional voice talent still make is believing that they work with websites. We ALL work with decent people each with a story of their own. Our company, software and all, has a team that has not forgotten it.
What a noble concept: Human decency, respect, and customer service.
Maybe if some self-knighted important people remembered that a few years ago, Paul would not need to write a blog like this today, but this industry is tough, so there is always something not to like. I always think about…How not to repeat negative cycles, and how did we get here.
If you want to see this as a heart-felt sales pitch or call me naive…I have already thought ahead of you to work on better ideas for pro voice talent. I don’t hate life that much to engage in something so sinister, and I am a better person because I learned from my mistakes. Not everyone has the ability to let go of things long enough to learn why it happens.
Best to you,
Steven
ps: What if everything you hated about a company turned out not to be true? Would you take the time to find out why? Could you accept it? One answer (yes)requires work, and the other (no) does not. I also know there are many who are way more experienced offline than I am, but I never made any claims I could not face up to about working online. Even in days of casting offices, I heard talent shred each other for being less talented and taking work away…and it happened all through college too. That is a symptom of a greater problem. I like to feel like I have progressed above that in the past 20 years.
I read your comment from top to bottom. I have no idea why you directed all that detailed information and commentary toward me. After rereading my own comments, I believe you went way overboard in singling me out. (Unless there is some other Rick in this group). My meager comment certainly did not warrant that kind of response. And I SURELY DON’T APPRECIATE IT!!!
Steven,
I admire your willing spirit, and ability to stick to your story. I tried V123 back in March/April. I gave up. I could not understand the value of an engineering project (smartcast) being used to solve an queueing problem using a machiavellian approach claiming fairness through police tactics. In other posts you have claimed that smartcast creates an even-handed approach to doling out the goods to the unwashed masses (well, you didn’t say THAT exactly, I did, but you get the drift). Warnings abound indicating that if you audition too many times, you’ll be sent to the back of the bus, and won’t be allowed to sit in the front of the bus for a while. Oh, and you have to CONTINUE pay to ride the bus, too!
I don’t remember exactly how many auditions I was “allowed” to do, but I received one email call back from a lady in South America who wanted me to lower my bid price (from $250 to $75 – their budget had been cut, and the content of the read had tripled!)…I think that was really near the end of my free premium month, and I let it slide. My thinking was…look, if you have to close off the auditions because there’s too many talents (or non-talents) going for the jobs, it just MAY be because there’s not enough jobs for the talents in the first place…pure speculation on my part, but again, Steven, I admire your dogged determination to put on a happy face about it.
Phil
You’ve read my review of your Guide and my opinion of you is no secret to the world. Most of us understand that the position you’re in can’t always be easy.
I have also noticed that at times you tend to take professional matters very personally. I interpret that as a sign of your commitment, and as proof that you care about your job, the company you work for, as well as your clients.
I might be wrong, but it is my impression that your passion sometimes gets in the way of your professionalism.
You’ve brought up some very serious things in your response, Steven. Please note that of all the voices that are taking part in this dialogue, no one has used the words “hate” or “indecent behavior,” and no one has spoken of low moral/ethical codes in connection with the company you work for. I don’t even understand why you would bring these things up. Is there something we should know?
Please read my new article Hanging Up My Hat for a more comprehensive response.
– Conduct market research in your area to find potential voice seekers and talents
– Contact new voice seekers and get them to post voice over projects on the site
– Organize meetups to demo the site
– Look for speaking opportunities to promote the site, whether to voice seekers or talents
– Optionally, develop partnerships with companies that can relate to the industry
Compensation and Privileges:
– Receive a 10% commission for all talents directed to the site that pays to become a premium member.
– USD10 for every SmartCast project posted in the site with a budget over USD100 and 10% of the budget for projects under USD100.
– Get the chance to audition for every single project posted in Voice123. A subscription worth thousands of dollars!
– Free donuts, pretzels, empanadas, arepas, snacks and drinks whenever you come to visit one of their offices.
Congrats on having so many blog readers in airports…that’s a demographic I never considered for my blog.
Steven,
It’s certainly an individual choice, but no matter where you read your blogs -you shouldn’t pretend to know what’s going on… that’s just another way someone could be considered a pretender or a wannabe by professional voice talents.
That’s my just observation after decades as a paid professional in the voiceover business.
And as for having your hands dirty for 4 years, well I think that’s a very telling observation.
As Paul pointed out, these blogs are forums to people to speak their mind and for people to respond with their thoughts about the post. Your thoughts and my thoughts and the thoughts of a few dozen others.
People have feelings and it sounds like your were hurt by the sum of the communication here. Your company is in a very polaring place in the VO landscape – you need to come to grips with that professionally.
I don’t think offending you personally was the intent on any level here and as they said in The Godfather:”It’s not personal, Sonny. It’s strictly business.”
First thing is…your statement is WAY over the top and has no base! You can’t defend a cause that has no base.
Evidently, after you claimed 20 years of experience in VO and a few others with your current company, you aren’t able to see the REAL POINTS of this discussion. One of them is: RATES. Yes, yes I know…P2P’s don’t set rates, but that’s not even the point. Regarding the rates issue, there are three important (aka life or death points) that you and your company are missing:
1)Though you can’t set rates for the talents, you are allowing rates that are ridiculously and unrespectfully low and you CAN control that. If you can’t control that through your company’s software, then, “Houston, YOU have a problem”.
2) Your company is contributing in the most awful way possible to the widespread addiction to lowballing VO jobs from clients. How? By having a whole section of their website telling customers: “Hey, you can expect to pay $500 dollars for a :30 seconds National TV movie trailer or TV spot”. Not to mention that YOUR company posted a so-called movie trailer demo next to the mentioned movie trailer rate… that movie trailer demo, by the way, is less than desirable, non-professional, rookie sounding…in other words, its lacks professionalism and above all, EXPERIENCE. And talking about experience…
3) You said in your prevous comment: “Auditions on our site that pay little, get auditions from people with little experience. The same holds true for the opposite, and the software supports that behavior, which is how we have a tier system.”
How in this world will your software know the VO experience I have? Can you answer that? Tell me how your software will know, for example, that I was the Executive Producer and Voice Talent of the 21st Central American and Caribbean Games Official Podcast…an international sporting event that had competitors from 32 countries located throughout the Caribbean sea, Central America and South America…a podcast that was downloaded or listened from countries like Argentina, Colombia, Peru, Mexico, Guatemala, United States, Spain, Switzerland, France, Russian Federation, Kuwait, China, Korea, Taiwan and Afghanistan among many others…not to mention that I have participated in other international VO recordings…
Can you tell me how your company’s software will put me on top of the list of “desirable” talents (according to that software) so I can have the chance to win a decent paying gig?
I don’t know the real deal with the English VO jobs, but regarding Spanish VO jobs I can tell you that many are posted, but none of them are worth a single penny. I have never seen a single Spanish VO job in your company website that pays more than $600 dollars (actually, that’s for jobs that REAL-PROFESSIONAL VO talents charge $1,500 dollars or more).
Stop your furious defense of your company, which is not doing any good to its reputation. Don’t be naive and start being professional in your behaviour and also be rational, by taking time to ANALYZE the comments of the readers of this or any other blog so you can actually make your company look good and make real progress.
Oh, before I forget…your company hasn’t made any big changes to the VO industry, at least for good, and I don’t think it will in the near future unless they make real changes to their own philosophy and start thinking outside the box, something that you and your company don’t know what that actually means!!!
Just because Steven (voice123) Lowell stuck his neck out, doesn’t mean that we should point our arrows at him or his company. He had no reason to single out Rick Lance, and we should all look past Steven and focus on the bigger picture. Steven is not the Pay to Play Posterboy.
There is a lot of discontent, but that’s no news. It’s almost a clichee. I don’t think we have any potential Ambassadors in this group either.
The gist of my story was that if certain P2P’s continue to grow and don’t adopt the strict standards of e.g. a Bodalgo, I think they’re gradually digging their own grave. If that’s the case, the problem will take care of itself without our intervention.
Voice talent also faces great challenges. Remember: Chris Johnson received 400+ offers and auditions and he did not post a single job on a P2P. He’s in overload mode and does not want to deal with a deluge of demos and a parade of inflated egos. Given that situation, how does one even get heard as a voice talent?
I offered Chris a simple solution: ask an agent! It’s by no means a radical or original suggestion. In fact, it’s very old-fashioned and rather predictable.
One of my agents, Erik Sheppard, could give Simplifilm a number of names in no time. Forget weeding through 400 voice samples, Chris. Get on with your day and concentrate on what you do best.
Good agents like Erik know the strengths and weaknesses of the talent they represent. They would know, Pablo, what your accomplishments are, and they will outsmart any software driven casting system any day.
In addition to that, they will make sure that you get paid a decent rate. First of all, because you’re worth it. Secondly, if you get paid well, they get paid well. How’s that for an incentive?
I suspect here’s how Johnson arrived at what he took for a 35% difference in conversion rates:
X=2.5%
Y=3.8%
(X-Y)/Y = -34.21%
(2) issues here, I think:
a. Rounding to 34% would’ve been more proper (just not as sexy).
b. The calculation is wrong. Chronologically, it’s more appropriate to subtract the Control from the Test, with the Control as the denominator. The whole point of the Test is to try to improve on the Control, so it’s about knowing how much better or worse the Test came out over the Control, not how much better or worse the Control was under the Test.
Here’s the correct difference between the two rates:
X=2.5%
Y=3.8%
(Y-X)/X = 52%
Anyway, so if his test was sound, he was still right about the conclusion: As an element unto itself, differences in the quality and appropriateness of a VO can count for a lot. He just sold it short a bit.
As you’re aware we at The Voice Realm are a site that only represents professional voice talent.
The feedback from clients has been unbelievable. The fact that they don’t have to sort through thousands of amateur auditions is the biggest breath of fresh air they have had in a while. The exact words from a recent client.
I hope we can repair the damage that the pay 2 play sites have done.
Why should a professional voice talent compete against thousands of inexperienced voices, and on top of that have to BID with a price. Furthermore the voice talent has to rush to be one of the first to audition.
No matter what anyone says, clients will rarely listen past 20 auditions.
I can say that from being in positions of casting for commercials over the years.
Nice.
Yeah, V123 has many OK submissions, but it’s all been absurd. When you want a voice, go to V123 & stop when you get someone useable. That will still work.
But why the hell would someone even audition for a gig that pays $125? I mean, how much work did I create? Many of the auditions were custom – meaning that they spent time. How do you track it?
On LinkedIN, I am getting “what did you think of my reel” messages already. Absurd to think that all I do is sit around looking at their reel. LinkedIn was worse than V123.
Hi Chris, thanks for giving me a golden opportunity to share some of my thoughts on this business! I have seen examples your work, and you certainly know how to get a message across in an enticing and entertaining way. I’m not surprised your videos increase conversion. To the uninitiated, your rate might seem a bit high, but business insiders know better. In a visual word, video as a means of telling a story is becoming more and more important. It takes talent to translate words and complex concepts into images that are easily understood. You and Jason are nailing it!
I’m sorry to hear that your appeal on LinkedIn led to an experience that “was worse than v123”. Many friends and colleagues belong to that group, and as you have noticed, there is no shortage of talent hoping to catch your attention. It’s a buyer’s market.
In my philosophy, it makes total sense to outsource part of your business and focus on what you do best. Experienced agents will listen to you describe the voice you’re looking for, and they’ll quickly scan their internal database for voices that would be a good fit. It takes them a minute or two, to come up with a couple of names (as opposed to 42 hours!). I won’t make any assumptions about your hourly rate, but I don’t think that finding one good voice is worth 42 times whatever you make in 60 minutes.
Chris and Paul, thanks to you both for sharing this information and experience. I SO appreciate the perspective of someone on the other side of the mic, who’s trying to cast. It confirms for me (among many other things) that if I am not one of the first 10 people auditioning for a P2P site job, I will not even bother. And it’s so important to get the word out about the importance of paying enough for a seasoned, professional voice talent. Anyway, I could go on and on about how helpful all this is, but instead I’ll just tweet and FB it!
-Heather
Hi Heather:
When I first read Chris’s blog I thought: “Finally someone who gets it… and he has data to back it up!”
I must admit that I am still paying to play (it’s a business expense), but I have adjusted my expectations considerably.
I’m keeping my fingers crossed for the ACX-deal! I am not at all surprised that you have been shortlisted!
Your right Paul, the only ones that seem to benefit financially are the owners of the P2P sites themselves. I have had far better results when I network on my own through FB, twitter and linkedin…now I’ve been shortlisted for a book deal from acx!
An interesting post (as always) Paul. While it’s not a key issue in your argument, or even the point of your post, there’s one calculation that I think may be off the mark a bit. You said:
“Of course it’s unusual to get 500 auditions for one job, so why not assume that Chris Johnson has to weed through (only!) 100 demos. If he spends 5 minutes on each talent, this will still take him eight and a half hours!”
5 minutes per talent? If every talent were of top quality and in the range that the client was looking for… maybe. But not likely. Most clients can tell if it’s “the right voice” within 5 to 10 seconds. Add a little time for a download or opening a file.. but still… a savvy client who knows what they want could review all those within an hour. And it would be time well invested if the right voice can increase their profit, right?
Again.. not a big deal, but a slight exaggeration perhaps.
I agree that there is a down side to some of the P2P sites as you’ve expressed, but I’m not ready to demonize them or discount their value entirely. If a talent is selective with their time and auditions, there are the occasional diamonds in the dust.
And who’s to say that the mass of mediocre mic jockeys don’t make the good talent sound GREAT by contrast and actually INCREASE their odds of getting the gig? 🙂
Coming from the King of Killer Demos, I have to agree with you on the average time spent listening to a reel… unless it was produced in your studio, of course! That’s always worth listening to. I was merely quoting Chris.
Just as Chris has been adding up the time needed to listen to sound samples, every talent should keep a log of all the time spent recording auditions for P2P’s in a year. Then he or she should look at how much money was earned (after deduction of membership fees), as a result of those auditions, and find out how much was made per hour. That’s one way to determine ROI.
Yes, there are definitely online opportunities and that’s why I am still a member of a few of these sites. But I am highly selective.
Lastly, it’s not my intention to demonize a service. I do think their value is decreasing as fast as their talent base is growing.
Dave and Paul – I caught this too – it’s extremely unlikely that anyone will have a 5 min demo either. Chris was clearly not happy to be inundated and was not expecting that kind of workload. Was he meaning that it was a 5 min avg review per talent? That seems generous. I would consider to change the math for more realism because that really does stand out as irregular. Or maybe give an alternative generic example of 30 sec of listening per demo plus some buffer zone for sorting through the whole set of submissions and note taking. I think the results still add up to the same but will seem realistic.
Oh and Dave, it’s probably a nice idea to think that the bad talent makes the good talent shine, but it still seems like the audition inundation to the producer gets their eyes foggy!!? ;0)
Even if Chris were to give each demo 60 seconds of his time, he’d still be better off with an experienced agent. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, and why not focus on what we do best, and outsource the rest?
Thanks for the kind words regarding the demos, Paul. As you menioned in your reply, I made a point to keep track of how many auditions I was submitting to the sites (as well as other time devoted to agent leads, cold calls, etc) and tracked the ROI. It caused me to be even MORE selective with the P2P auditions.. and it’s payed off. I think you hit on it. The key to the P2P sites is to BE SELECTIVE.
Thanks for the wonderfully precise example Paul! And thanks to Chris too, for sharing. I agree with Paul that Agents are much better suited to assist a professional project than a P2P.
I’m not sure that P2P will blow up any time soon unless the one-off or novice producers stop posting there and thus auditions dry up… so until then!
For the professional level of VO, I’ve never really believed that P2P offered anything. I think this illustrated that belief’s accuracy.
One point not mentioned as it’s sort of the ‘next’ conversation, but VO Agents have been struggling during the last several years… or at least that’s my impression. Has P2P cost them in some ways – or is it the economy – or both?
If all else fails, we can always blame “the economy”.
There must be something we can learn from Apple’s tremendous success in one of the worst economic downturns on record.
hey Paul.
This story was high-larious. I was in the airport reading the Voice Over Guide or some such title written by a guy from V123 and he was advising his readers about the value of high speed Internet to voice over. Really, someone has to be told that? Those p2p talents must be mighty green.
As long as there are coupons and BOGO’s there will be somebody looking for price as the deciding factor on their VO gig. It’s the wrong place to cut corners but Ive just decided that the cheapskates aren’t my prospects. Fair price for great value clients are. God bless the wanna be’s.
Best always ,
– Peter
Racking up frequent flyer miles again, Peter? Thanks for taking my blog to new levels!
To some, the grass is always greener on the other side, even if they have to pay to play there.
This is really interesting Paul. I do agree with Dave that spending 5 minutes on a talent would be a stretch. Most demos I receive are lucky to get more than 10 seconds of my time. I usually know within that time if its worth listening to for another 10 or more.
It really goes to show how important finding the right voice is to your bottom line.
Dan Friedman
http://www.sound4vo.com
http://www.procommvoices.com
I would just wonder if the first 5 words after the slate would tell you what you are looking for in a talent, or will the slate be enough sometimes.
Do we really have ten seconds to impress you, Dan? All this time I have been carefully crafting five minute custom demos…. I could have saved so much time!
Seriously, people get more time on America’s got talent!
Paul and Chris,
Thanks for the insight! My experience with P-to-P sites has been, well…not-so-much. My first work was a corporate video, and the second a voice recognition software company…hmmm. But, recently, through ACX, I’ve landed a SCI-FI audio book. While it’s certainly a much longer road/read, you don’t get winded running from watering hole to watering hole with the rest of the herd…you get to spend more time finessing the piece. Sound like sour grapes? Not really. Everybody keeps telling me that I’ll find my niche…
I’ve limited my email notifications at Voices.com to those above $250. My membership for the year has been paid for… As a wise VO said to me recently in a heavily compressed, gravelly voice…’I don’t even get out of bed for less than $300!’.
My concern in all of this is that the front end loading of talent factories hasn’t slowed down, because the word is out that ‘VO’s the place to be…it’s an easy life, and you can work from home, and…’
It reminds a little of the reels from American Idol and America’s got Talent…Hundreds and hundreds of people pushing and shoving to get to the head of the line for a shot at that one spot…Whew!
I think I’ll swim in the opposite direction for a while…maybe when the crowd figures out I’m gone, they’ll wonder where…and I’ll have already arrived.
Congratulations on your ACX deal, Phil. There are so many ways to land a job in the wonderful world of voiceovers. There is life after P2P’s…. but maybe not as we have come to know it!
Thank you – thank you – thank you…… Paul. I have felt like a voiceover crying in the Wilderness for SO long!
I am now almost two weeks through my 3 month P2P experiment. So far I have been notified of 5 auditions by one site, (which as a non-paying member I have not been allowed to submit for) they were all were very low budget – and put it like this… were I casting them, I would not have cast me. On the one site where I have paid a minimum subscription I have been invited to submit for three auditions including an animal voice over – (not on my list of accents – sorry) but not for a medical information project looking for a mature, trustworthy and believable UK voice (Describes me to a T). I have submitted a further two auditions via this site, neither of which has been opened by the voice seeker! The one other interesting invitation which was posted in the US at 2.00am (UK time) and was already over subscribed therefore closed to new submissions by the time I got up that morning.
I have submitted four auditions (via the one site that allows you to audition without paying – VoicesPro. One of which has not been opened by the voice seeker; one client has sent an e-mail saying thanks but no thanks and there has been no response from the other two.
So far I don’t think I will be rushing to pay any further subs.
There has to be a better way!
Helen
Thanks again for the update, Helen.
It is hard and unfair to generalize an individual experience, but one thing sticks out each and every time the subject of P2P’s comes up. Many colleagues seem to believe that this system benefits voice seekers more than it benefits voice talent.
Secondly, they see a link between rates getting lower and the rise of P2P’s. Every single year, the cost of living goes up. Have you seen the P2P voiceover rates go up in past couple of years?
Chris Johnson is selling his short videos for 33,000 dollars each. I’m sure that in that chunk of money, there is something put aside for a good voice.
Chris knows: it always pays to go pro!
A little addition to the audition experiment – I have now been sent two reminders that I can submit an audition for the animal impersonation VO! They have apparently received fewer submissions than the voice seeker is expecting to receive (now there’s a surprise) and it would be ‘a good opportunity for me’! Really? Well at least it raised a smile!
Thanks for the update on your animal experiment, Helen. I can already see the end-credits: “No voiceover was hurt in the production of this video.”
Hi Helen,
Enjoyed reading about your P2P experiment 🙂
I noticed the Animal impersonation audition too. If I am thinking of the same one you are mentioning, it had a red flag to me: it was too nondescript, meaning, I think it is an audition that can too easily be used as end product by the voice seeker. That might be the reason they got so few auditions.
Kind regards,
Linda
Hi there,
thanks for this article which makes me even more certain that bodalgo does not fit in this picture. Simply because of the fact that we do NOT let everybody with a credit join our community, there are hardly any jobs at all that get even near 100 auditions.
Also: Because of our “pickyness”, the amount of voice seekers is growing faster than the amount of talents which keeps the balance “number of jobs vs. number of premium talents” at a very healthy stage, I’d say.
And there is something else that helps going down that road: On average skilled vo talents WILL nail jobs, amateurs won’t. Maybe it’s only me, but I want …
1. professional voices that get jobs
2. voice seekers that are happy with the voice talents
What I don’t want:
1. Amateurs that never nail jobs and keep complaining and blaiming the website for this instead of facing the truth that they are just crap. Period.
2. Voice seekers that book an amateur and are horribly unsatisfied afterwards. They will turn their back on bodalgo forever. We can not let that happen.
So, in a nutshell: Paul, I like you, but I’m not afraid at all that bodalgo will implode. And maybe that simply because of the fact that we never grew exponentially, the opposite is quite true: bodalgo’s growth rate is rather slow. And it will take time, time, time to get reputation in the industry for being a place where there are professional talents only.
But: I am not in a hurry.
Not. At. All.
Best
Armin
Team bodalgo.
Likes attract, Armin, and that’s why I like Bodalgo.
I made sure to write that “most Pay to Plays will eventually implode.” The observant reader will have noticed that I was reminded of my interview with you while contemplating the downside of almost automatic membership.
There’s always an exception that proves the rule, and in this case I believe that Bodalgo is it. Quality trumps quantity.
I agree and use Bodalgo. I consider it a Professional site. I do not consider it a Pay to Play anymore. Please keep doing what you are doing Armin!
I agree with folks’ endorsement of Bodalgo, and Armin’s comment here is supported by my experience with this particular P2P.
Paul, you’ve got quite a lively conversation going here on P2Ps and the biz in general. Clearly a lot of talent are appreciating the chance to say “Amen”!
I say “Hallelujah” to that, Heather!
Thank you so much for this Paul (and Chris)! It’s candid conversations like these (as opposed to the sales messages we’re used to) that really build our industry and creative community!
I think most novice talent (and some beyond that level) still don’t seem to get that this is an entrepreneurial endeavor, not just a search for “jobs”. That’s what’s keeping those P2P’s going – the supply of “jobs” and the belief that you must be dependent on a gatekeeper to build your career.
Every truly successful voice talent I know (and composer – I see it on the music side of the coin, too) has built their business on a foundation of networking, smart strategy and marketing, and ELBOW GREASE. They know who their client IS (which is a real biggie if you’re depending only on what leads come to you, because it allows you to seek out opportunity so much better), so they’re able to get on the phone, go to events, and spend their online time at the places that make the most impact.
So why don’t more do it? Because it takes TIME. I just today sealed up a strategic partnership I started building over a year ago. I have many other stories just like that. It’s not as easy as pulling out the credit card and having my inbox fill up immediately. But then again, once you start in, neither are the P2P’s…
Hey Dana, congrats on sealing that deal! As they say: it usually takes many years to become an overnight success. This isn’t instant oatmeal.
P2P’s have made it very easy to be in this business. We pay our membership; put up a profile with a few demos and then we just wait for the job offers to arrive in our in-box. It’s exciting and you can even do it in your spare time…
We -who have been around the block a couple of times- know that this is just an illusion. Being self-employed can be tough. Very tough. Having to deal with uncertainty all the time; getting our hopes up and giving our very best… only to never hear back after we sent out that brilliant demo.
I am not complaining. To me it’s part of the package. Most people have to learn the hard way that Elbow Grease is not something you can buy off the shelves at Target. It comes from within!
Very, very interesting here Paul. Although, I’m not sure you impressed anyone from Voices or Voice123. I notice an absence of there comments.
I just recently renewed my membership in both Voices and Voice123.
When I first started out with Voice123 more than 6 years ago, it was absolutely the best thing to happen in my career regarding finding work.
Each year I look at the ROI and it seems to be decreasing. I’m also aware that these sites have become overloaded with weak or just plain cheap talent. At the same time, I feel guilty not at least reading through each lead that is sent to me… all week long. Something has got to give here! I like your “balloon” analogy. I’ve been watching these sites trying to gauge the activity level and evaluate there true reality.
You’ve given me more food for thought on this. Maybe I need to take a more professional approach to them. I just read where someone says that they only respond to private audition requests. Maybe that’s a good way to go.
At any rate, the most important thing I try to do is separate myself from other talent … to stand out front. I think I’ve got a unique sound to start with and a good sense of the business. It may be time to contemplate some big changes.
I’m sure that P2P sites are going to be a MAJOR topic at Faffcon3. I’m looking forward to discussing this with you and many others up there.
I’m sure we’ll discuss many things at Faffcon and yes… P2P’s will be on the agenda. Meanwhile, I am trying to rock and roll the boat a little bit. Others are trying to build a bridge over troubled water.
We have done a number of interviews with casting directors and producers at Internet Voice Coach (of which Paul is a regular contributor) and one of the questions I always like to ask them is: how many auditions do you usually listen to for any given project?
Granted, these producers/directors are almost always going through an agent, but I was still initially surprised by the answer: 5 to 10 auditions. I always thought it was closer to 50.
I ask them, how many people do you actually have auditioning? Again, the answer is 5 to 10. So they are listening to every audition sent to them (5 to 10) and choosing from among those.
Now I ask them the benefit of using an agent over a P2P sight or another alternative.
Their answers (and it’s amazing how consistent they are) go something like this (I am paraphrasing, but just barely):
“I have developed a trust with the agencies. They know my projects and what I like in a voice. I trust them to do that work for me. That’s their job and and they do it well. I like only having to listen to a few voices, knowing I’m going to find what I want, and if an agency has done their homework in representing a talent, then I’m also expecting a professionalism that I wouldn’t otherwise get, necessarily.
It’s both cost and time effective for me; I know the voice (and the professionalism) of the actor will be of high-quality.
So we pay more for a voice through an agent, and they (the agent) get their 10% on top of that, but letting them find the right voices for me is huge. I don’t want a voice that’s “good enough.” I want a voice that’s great and will help the project or campaign do great things.
If nickel and dimeing everyone is your business philosophy, then that is what your project is going to end up being worth.”
I have been very heartened by the producers I’ve talked to (and their business acumen), as this is the way I have made my living as a VO actor for 25 years. I like to be paid what I am worth, because I am giving them worth in the voice and the product they expect. Reciprocity is a very civil and energizing thing.
I assume the pendulum will eventually swing away from the fad of P2Ps, although I don’t believe they will just go away. People who have minuscule budgets for tiny projects will always find someone who is “good enough” for their needs.
The important work will stay with the agencies, and with VO actors who have created repeat business clients through hard work and good will.
And that’s the way it should be.
Best,
David Rosenthal
InternetVoiceCoach.com
Thanks for offering your perspective, Dave. Since people can find us on the same page -literally- it is no secret that I also draw from your insights and experience when I come up with these blogs.
Some of my conclusions might be based on pure speculation, but I do have some very well-informed sources. I am happy to say that you’re one of them!
I know casting directors and the way it works when most people listen to demos everyday as a job, they only listen to the first two seconds “get our attention before we can get the mouse to the x” okay, the quote isn’t perfectly verbatim, but it is basically what was said. With that said, p2p is worth giving a try. Why? If they dislike you in the first two seconds that will be marked as reviewed, if they like you in the first two seconds they’ll listen longer and you’ve got a shot! I’ve noticed that once there is over 100 demos submitted on voices, the people hiring stop reviewing. I was auditioned on the spot for zambezia, a film in production coming out this year or next & this was in person. My point is if they like you they’ll know in the first two seconds and may audition you on the spot, if they don’t like you, you won’t hear from them. Simple!
I always encourage people to give something a try before they pass judgment. That’s why I have been a member of most P2P’s for at least a year. If I wanted to write about them, the least I could do was getting to know them from the inside. And let’s be honest: if they did not meet a need, they’d be out of business by now. But staring into my crystal ball, I just can’t see a very bright future for this model.
Haven’t commented on these blogs in a while haha! Anyway, you raised some really great points in this article and the articles that you have written about pay-to-play sites. As I personally am still only pursuing to to get into the voiceover field and haven’t actually done professional work yet, it helps to have the kind of insight that you give in these articles!
Thanks for coming back, Bryson. I missed you!
I’m sure I don’t need to tell you that parts of this blog are based on my subjective take on reality as I see it.
Treat all these voiceover blogs as a Vegas buffet. Take what you like and leave the rest alone. Some items are healthier than others!
There is a different way for seekers to find voice talent on the pay to play sites.
Search voices and listen to some demos. Fine a few to your liking and then, send those talents invitations to audition with your copy. It’s much more productive than simply putting it out to the masses, which include all levels of talent. Like radio contest players, some people must have set ups to make them quick to respond — so their auditions appear first. Doesn’t mean they are more suitable than people who come later. That is eliminated by screening the demos in advance.
Thanks for that, Michael. Your method still requires weeding, and I can’t imagine where to begin on a site like voices.com with thousands of members.
I would like voice seekers to be more precise in telling us what they’ll be listening for (instead of: Male/English). A more detailed description helps voice talent to determine whether or not they’re suitable for the job.
Paul (and Chris), this article has really hit the nail right in the HEAD! I’m not against P2P’s at all, but there are some that just don’t respects VO talents, the VO industry, not even themselves. For example, I receive a notification from one of them to do a Spanish VO for NATIONAL TV :30 seconds SPOT IN THE UNITED STATES, plus translation from English to Spanish (which I do…for a fee)…and the client was offering only $400 dollars for that job. Are you kidding me? I think that any VO talent that respect their profession will charge four figures for that kind of job. My formula is simple: If you have money to pay a National TV campaign in the US, then you also have money to pay me what I’m worth…PERIOD. Also, I did never see in that P2P site a Spanish VO job that pay more than $500 dollars. In fact, I did not renew my subscription with that P2P because it just doesn’t make sense. For us Spanish VO talents, is especially difficult to get a decent job (whatever that means) in a P2P site. I don’t want to miss something about the same P2P I was talking about. In a section of their site where they tell the voice seekers how much they can expect to pay for a VO job, you find a so-called movie trailer demo that evidently was not recorded by a movie trailer experienced talent and that has the tag “$500 USD” in case the campaign is on National TV in the US. Again…Are you kidding me? I know there are people that charge five figures for a movie trailer VO. Things like that one let me know that these companies, especially that one, DON’T respect us all and they not know what the heck they are doing…for me, it’s offensive that a P2P is low balling the jobs themselves. I hope my comment adds an interesting perpective from a Spanish VO talent.
Are we getting paid or are we being played? Some clients use these sites to prey on ignorant newcomers that are hoping to break into the business. These are the folks that crowd the forums and ask basic questions, hoping that a pro will do their homework.
P2P’s will tell you again and again that they’re not in the business of setting rates. They leave that up to “the market”. They certainly facilitate supply and demand and in that respect they are “enablers”.
Every voice talent deserves respect and a decent income… no matter his or her background, nationality, language or upbringing.
Rick,
I wanted to respond, but held back. I get accused of being a walking sales-pitch for my company, but because you asked, let me reply.
I just wish to run down a list of things here as to why this blog is well…just wrong:
1. The people commenting negatively either have not used our site in more than 2 years, or never at all. I believe some asked me to take their profiles down too. I have been here 4 years, have a killer memory, and used all sites for 2 years prior. Funny…I think Armin used our site more than Paul, actually. Paul is less likely to work on our site due to the lack of jobs for Dutch talent.
2. Truth about us:
a. ONLY 10 people on average audition per job/ 75-80% of the auditions are opened.
b. We changed business models in 2007. Our competition did not. To say, “We are becoming diluted” is an issue we dealt with a long time ago; not all liked the way we did it, or like it now, and too many never learned how we did it to see we have a pro tier system built in.
c. The software, love it or hate it, has a tier system built into it to promote smart auditioning IMHO. The talent on our site are VERY talented and very smart. Of course, you have some who create webpages on a whim, but some also think our site is a news periodical. (Village Voice…get my point?) That doesn’t cost anyone work, and it never will.
d. True, someone can pay and sign up, but when they quickly find out we operate nothing like a ‘beginner site’ we get refund requests, OR the person sticks it out to see what they can learn from the site and the smart people using it. It is cheaper than a coaches class, and we offer customer service to everyone…even those who don’t pay, and those who don’t like us. We do not turn away because someone needs help; something agents and unions should think about in this “WE” generation.
e. I can read blogs in airports too and pretend I know whats going on, but I made a choice to get my hands dirty 4 years ago and find out what really happens. It makes for a lonely day or two, but this career has always been competitive. In regards to that, if you think people running these sites are not creative and don’t know the industry, you are already behind. For whatever way they choose to run their business, no one is “green”.
f. I have been contacted by agents through our search feature, as well as other talent and union jobs are posted on our site with software that makes sure only union talent are invited. A big challenge is that some talent need to understand how to make a job union on their own, but this is info the union must provide, and we hope they will. In addition, granted it happened twice, but an agent has asked me before to find them SAG voice talent in NYC.
g. All of the above…made me no commission, and that is perfect. If we were paid commission, talent would pay us more than our yearly fee anyway, and they are smart enough to know that we are kinda cool as a tax write-off.
h. Auditions on our site that pay little, get auditions from people with little experience. The same holds true for the opposite, and the software supports that behavior, which is how we have a tier system.
Now…I will give you my personal prediction on what will implode first: Blogs containing information that serves no one but the writer, and his/her inner circle without fact-checking.
The main reason is this: When people have discovered their purpose, and that purpose is positive, it will forever be stronger than something that doesn’t. If what we/I personally promise actually gets professionals work, I have made my point, and we already have for many people.
I have been around VO’s for 20 years now, and my 20’s were filled with bull***t artists, bullying agents, casting directors, and at times, bullying unions (which I dont like to say because I do believe the ideal of unions is very positive). Maybe some like that life-style, but I know plenty who did not.
I have also worked with famous companies with low moral/ethical codes. I survived an empty NYC VO business for 3 years after 9/11, and reconnected with good people in 2004 who showed me how voice overs had changed. Yet, I immediately saw why they changed because someone offered them a way out of that ‘old way’.
Before working where I do now, I worked for a company that showed me that all the money, professionalism, and big talk in the world can still be a company filled with very bad people. I work with good people. I am here now because it is an opportunity to make some real positive change. I have already spent enough time studying my failures and others. It is only when I study how to improve that positive things happen, and they always will be. They always will be… and I say that twice to let you know things change based around the positive actions of smart talent who know what they are doing online, and do not need agents, BUT they will gladly work with them too. They set the tier system in their minds, whether they blog about it or not. And there you go…for once…voice talent have options.
By the way, whether they wanted to comment or not, I dont know…but our competition had a new baby today, I believe. If anything, the biggest mistake professional voice talent still make is believing that they work with websites. We ALL work with decent people each with a story of their own. Our company, software and all, has a team that has not forgotten it.
What a noble concept: Human decency, respect, and customer service.
Maybe if some self-knighted important people remembered that a few years ago, Paul would not need to write a blog like this today, but this industry is tough, so there is always something not to like. I always think about…How not to repeat negative cycles, and how did we get here.
If you want to see this as a heart-felt sales pitch or call me naive…I have already thought ahead of you to work on better ideas for pro voice talent. I don’t hate life that much to engage in something so sinister, and I am a better person because I learned from my mistakes. Not everyone has the ability to let go of things long enough to learn why it happens.
Best to you,
Steven
ps: What if everything you hated about a company turned out not to be true? Would you take the time to find out why? Could you accept it? One answer (yes)requires work, and the other (no) does not. I also know there are many who are way more experienced offline than I am, but I never made any claims I could not face up to about working online. Even in days of casting offices, I heard talent shred each other for being less talented and taking work away…and it happened all through college too. That is a symptom of a greater problem. I like to feel like I have progressed above that in the past 20 years.
I try anyway.
Steven,
I read your comment from top to bottom. I have no idea why you directed all that detailed information and commentary toward me. After rereading my own comments, I believe you went way overboard in singling me out. (Unless there is some other Rick in this group). My meager comment certainly did not warrant that kind of response. And I SURELY DON’T APPRECIATE IT!!!
Steven,
I admire your willing spirit, and ability to stick to your story. I tried V123 back in March/April. I gave up. I could not understand the value of an engineering project (smartcast) being used to solve an queueing problem using a machiavellian approach claiming fairness through police tactics. In other posts you have claimed that smartcast creates an even-handed approach to doling out the goods to the unwashed masses (well, you didn’t say THAT exactly, I did, but you get the drift). Warnings abound indicating that if you audition too many times, you’ll be sent to the back of the bus, and won’t be allowed to sit in the front of the bus for a while. Oh, and you have to CONTINUE pay to ride the bus, too!
I don’t remember exactly how many auditions I was “allowed” to do, but I received one email call back from a lady in South America who wanted me to lower my bid price (from $250 to $75 – their budget had been cut, and the content of the read had tripled!)…I think that was really near the end of my free premium month, and I let it slide. My thinking was…look, if you have to close off the auditions because there’s too many talents (or non-talents) going for the jobs, it just MAY be because there’s not enough jobs for the talents in the first place…pure speculation on my part, but again, Steven, I admire your dogged determination to put on a happy face about it.
Phil
Hi Steven:
You’ve read my review of your Guide and my opinion of you is no secret to the world. Most of us understand that the position you’re in can’t always be easy.
I have also noticed that at times you tend to take professional matters very personally. I interpret that as a sign of your commitment, and as proof that you care about your job, the company you work for, as well as your clients.
I might be wrong, but it is my impression that your passion sometimes gets in the way of your professionalism.
You’ve brought up some very serious things in your response, Steven. Please note that of all the voices that are taking part in this dialogue, no one has used the words “hate” or “indecent behavior,” and no one has spoken of low moral/ethical codes in connection with the company you work for. I don’t even understand why you would bring these things up. Is there something we should know?
Please read my new article Hanging Up My Hat for a more comprehensive response.
On a different note:
Voice123 is looking for “Ambassadors” to
– Conduct market research in your area to find potential voice seekers and talents
– Contact new voice seekers and get them to post voice over projects on the site
– Organize meetups to demo the site
– Look for speaking opportunities to promote the site, whether to voice seekers or talents
– Optionally, develop partnerships with companies that can relate to the industry
Compensation and Privileges:
– Receive a 10% commission for all talents directed to the site that pays to become a premium member.
– USD10 for every SmartCast project posted in the site with a budget over USD100 and 10% of the budget for projects under USD100.
– Get the chance to audition for every single project posted in Voice123. A subscription worth thousands of dollars!
– Free donuts, pretzels, empanadas, arepas, snacks and drinks whenever you come to visit one of their offices.
Paul,
Congrats on having so many blog readers in airports…that’s a demographic I never considered for my blog.
Steven,
It’s certainly an individual choice, but no matter where you read your blogs -you shouldn’t pretend to know what’s going on… that’s just another way someone could be considered a pretender or a wannabe by professional voice talents.
That’s my just observation after decades as a paid professional in the voiceover business.
And as for having your hands dirty for 4 years, well I think that’s a very telling observation.
As Paul pointed out, these blogs are forums to people to speak their mind and for people to respond with their thoughts about the post. Your thoughts and my thoughts and the thoughts of a few dozen others.
People have feelings and it sounds like your were hurt by the sum of the communication here. Your company is in a very polaring place in the VO landscape – you need to come to grips with that professionally.
I don’t think offending you personally was the intent on any level here and as they said in The Godfather:”It’s not personal, Sonny. It’s strictly business.”
Best always,
–Peter
Peter, this blog is taking off like never before…. but where will it land?
I’m back in my studio to record my next pilot in plain English.
Please fasten your seat belts!
Steven,
First thing is…your statement is WAY over the top and has no base! You can’t defend a cause that has no base.
Evidently, after you claimed 20 years of experience in VO and a few others with your current company, you aren’t able to see the REAL POINTS of this discussion. One of them is: RATES. Yes, yes I know…P2P’s don’t set rates, but that’s not even the point. Regarding the rates issue, there are three important (aka life or death points) that you and your company are missing:
1)Though you can’t set rates for the talents, you are allowing rates that are ridiculously and unrespectfully low and you CAN control that. If you can’t control that through your company’s software, then, “Houston, YOU have a problem”.
2) Your company is contributing in the most awful way possible to the widespread addiction to lowballing VO jobs from clients. How? By having a whole section of their website telling customers: “Hey, you can expect to pay $500 dollars for a :30 seconds National TV movie trailer or TV spot”. Not to mention that YOUR company posted a so-called movie trailer demo next to the mentioned movie trailer rate… that movie trailer demo, by the way, is less than desirable, non-professional, rookie sounding…in other words, its lacks professionalism and above all, EXPERIENCE. And talking about experience…
3) You said in your prevous comment: “Auditions on our site that pay little, get auditions from people with little experience. The same holds true for the opposite, and the software supports that behavior, which is how we have a tier system.”
How in this world will your software know the VO experience I have? Can you answer that? Tell me how your software will know, for example, that I was the Executive Producer and Voice Talent of the 21st Central American and Caribbean Games Official Podcast…an international sporting event that had competitors from 32 countries located throughout the Caribbean sea, Central America and South America…a podcast that was downloaded or listened from countries like Argentina, Colombia, Peru, Mexico, Guatemala, United States, Spain, Switzerland, France, Russian Federation, Kuwait, China, Korea, Taiwan and Afghanistan among many others…not to mention that I have participated in other international VO recordings…
Can you tell me how your company’s software will put me on top of the list of “desirable” talents (according to that software) so I can have the chance to win a decent paying gig?
I don’t know the real deal with the English VO jobs, but regarding Spanish VO jobs I can tell you that many are posted, but none of them are worth a single penny. I have never seen a single Spanish VO job in your company website that pays more than $600 dollars (actually, that’s for jobs that REAL-PROFESSIONAL VO talents charge $1,500 dollars or more).
Stop your furious defense of your company, which is not doing any good to its reputation. Don’t be naive and start being professional in your behaviour and also be rational, by taking time to ANALYZE the comments of the readers of this or any other blog so you can actually make your company look good and make real progress.
Oh, before I forget…your company hasn’t made any big changes to the VO industry, at least for good, and I don’t think it will in the near future unless they make real changes to their own philosophy and start thinking outside the box, something that you and your company don’t know what that actually means!!!
Just because Steven (voice123) Lowell stuck his neck out, doesn’t mean that we should point our arrows at him or his company. He had no reason to single out Rick Lance, and we should all look past Steven and focus on the bigger picture. Steven is not the Pay to Play Posterboy.
There is a lot of discontent, but that’s no news. It’s almost a clichee. I don’t think we have any potential Ambassadors in this group either.
The gist of my story was that if certain P2P’s continue to grow and don’t adopt the strict standards of e.g. a Bodalgo, I think they’re gradually digging their own grave. If that’s the case, the problem will take care of itself without our intervention.
Voice talent also faces great challenges. Remember: Chris Johnson received 400+ offers and auditions and he did not post a single job on a P2P. He’s in overload mode and does not want to deal with a deluge of demos and a parade of inflated egos. Given that situation, how does one even get heard as a voice talent?
I offered Chris a simple solution: ask an agent! It’s by no means a radical or original suggestion. In fact, it’s very old-fashioned and rather predictable.
One of my agents, Erik Sheppard, could give Simplifilm a number of names in no time. Forget weeding through 400 voice samples, Chris. Get on with your day and concentrate on what you do best.
Good agents like Erik know the strengths and weaknesses of the talent they represent. They would know, Pablo, what your accomplishments are, and they will outsmart any software driven casting system any day.
In addition to that, they will make sure that you get paid a decent rate. First of all, because you’re worth it. Secondly, if you get paid well, they get paid well. How’s that for an incentive?
I suspect here’s how Johnson arrived at what he took for a 35% difference in conversion rates:
X=2.5%
Y=3.8%
(X-Y)/Y = -34.21%
(2) issues here, I think:
a. Rounding to 34% would’ve been more proper (just not as sexy).
b. The calculation is wrong. Chronologically, it’s more appropriate to subtract the Control from the Test, with the Control as the denominator. The whole point of the Test is to try to improve on the Control, so it’s about knowing how much better or worse the Test came out over the Control, not how much better or worse the Control was under the Test.
Here’s the correct difference between the two rates:
X=2.5%
Y=3.8%
(Y-X)/X = 52%
Anyway, so if his test was sound, he was still right about the conclusion: As an element unto itself, differences in the quality and appropriateness of a VO can count for a lot. He just sold it short a bit.
Chris will be happy to hear that. Thanks for doing the math, Scott!
My pleasure. Thanks for the cool post!
That looked an awful lot like algebra and I think it was cause as soon as I read it I started shaking and I think I threw up a little bit in my mouth.
Must go to my happy place!!!
Best always,
– Peter (whimper)
Hi Paul,
Stumbled across this post from twitter.
As you’re aware we at The Voice Realm are a site that only represents professional voice talent.
The feedback from clients has been unbelievable. The fact that they don’t have to sort through thousands of amateur auditions is the biggest breath of fresh air they have had in a while. The exact words from a recent client.
I hope we can repair the damage that the pay 2 play sites have done.
Why should a professional voice talent compete against thousands of inexperienced voices, and on top of that have to BID with a price. Furthermore the voice talent has to rush to be one of the first to audition.
No matter what anyone says, clients will rarely listen past 20 auditions.
I can say that from being in positions of casting for commercials over the years.
Great blog!
Robert James
http://www.thevoicerealm.com
Here’s the problem with online cattle calls: you get a lot of bullsh*t!
The Realm rules, Robert! It’s relatively easy to complain about a situation. It’s much better to offer a solution. Your site does just that.