Are we demonizing and alienating people who choose to find jobs at voices dot com (VDC) or Fiverr? Someone new to VO posted this on Facebook recently:
“A couple days ago I posted on another VO FB group I’m on about some success I was having on Voices dot com aka VDC as a very new talent, trying to share my experience so others could know what to expect when it comes to their “algorithm” for doling out auditions.
One of the commenters suggested that VDC has bad business practices and that I should be avoiding them. A fair comment, and I responded saying that yes, I was aware but was using them to get my bearings and learn how to do this job before sinking thousands into demos (I don’t have any yet).
The entire thread got derailed, and she went on to call me a shill/propagandist for VDC. The thread was then deleted, and the useful info I was trying to share for people using VDC got lost.
I’m reminded by this of Carin Gilfry’s comments on the podcast episode about Fiverr, and how gatekeepers aren’t doing the industry any favours by demonizing people who are using some of the less-than-top-notch platforms.
I don’t want to be working at the bottom forever, I hope to move up quickly to better paying jobs on more reputable platforms. I’m grateful for people like Carin who understand that there are many ways to get started, and that we can’t prevent a slide into lower wages for VO by ostracizing the people who are willing to do it, but rather by helping them improve to the point that they know they’re worth more.”
THE ROUNDUP RESPONSE
First of all: Kudos to this talent for wanting to help others by sharing her experience using voices dot com. I remember when I got started in this business… I don’t think Facebook even existed (yes, I’m that old), and I would have loved some advice on how to break into this almost impenetrable business.
Secondly, the writer is aware of VDC’s reputation, but is choosing to use the platform anyway. Thousands and thousands of people are doing the same thing, and that’s how VDC stays in business posting 1000 dollar jobs for 500 and pocketing the difference.
That’s like saying, “I know RoundUp weed killer poisons my garden and kills pollinators but I’ll use it anyway because it works for me.”
Mind you: good people can do very good work in a very bad environment. They are not responsible for that environment, but they enable it to grow. They are keeping it alive, and thus become complicit.
This colleague then says:
“I was aware but was using them to get my bearings and learn how to do this job before sinking thousands into demos.”
That’s a justification I have heard hundreds of times. “I don’t really like what a company like VDC is doing, but I am USING them to get started.” And Pay to Plays are the first to lean into that narrative. They know that there aren’t enough jobs on the platform to keep everybody happy, so the way they justify their annual fee is to say: “You may not get the job, but at least you got some practice.”
Yeah… every time you fail to book a job, you have learned how NOT to do it. And since repetition is the mother of skill, the more you fail, the better you become at what you’re not good at.
Let me repeat that:
The more you fail, the better you become at what you’re not good at.
LEARNING ON THE JOB
Learning can only take place when you get in-depth feedback on your poor performance, and when someone more experienced and skilled shows you how you can improve.
So, I want to know: did the kind people at VDC ever give you any detailed insight as to why you didn’t land all the jobs you auditioned for? And did they give you any type of coaching that would increase your chances of doing well on the platform?
“I was aware but was using them to get my bearings and learn how to do this job before sinking thousands into demos .”
I appreciate this person’s honesty. She admits she’s using VDC to effectively learn on the job. Can you imagine skier Mikaela Shiffrin signing up for the Olympics so she can gain some experience? Or Dutch race car driver Max Verstappen showing up for a Grand Prix to become familiar with his new car?
No. These people are in it, to win it. The purpose of using sites like VDC is to book jobs and make money. If you need on the job training, you’re telling me you are not ready for the race.
Would you ever hire an electrician to rewire your entire house who admits he’s just trying to get his bearings? Would you trust a surgeon to operate on your baby boy, who admits that she needs more job experience?
And what about clients? The clients who hire you expect you to KNOW your job. They don’t want you to experiment on their dime. That’s not what they are paying you for. They might as well turn to AI!
Of course one could argue that every new job is a learning experience, but that’s where you REFINE the skills you are already supposed to possess. If you don’t think you have what it takes and you need more time to become good at what you do, your priority should be coaching, and not leaving bad impression after bad impression on Pay to Plays.
DISCOURAGING NEWBIES
Why is this such a hard concept to understand, and why are people like me who bring this up, seen as discouraging, or demonizing and alienating newbies? Contrary to what some people believe, I’m not a nasty person. I’ve been supporting new talent since my very first blog post, many, many years ago.
Here’s another way to make my point.
When I buy an expensive ticket to a classical concert, I expect to be wowed. I’m not paying for a pianist who’s learning on the job.
“But Paul, isn’t that a bit extreme?”
No, it’s not.
The voice over business (and many other businesses in which creative freelancers are active) is not an equal opportunity business. For two reasons. ONE: people are not equally talented. The fact that one person is naturally good at something and the other isn’t, is UNFAIR, and it can’t be fixed. TWO: There isn’t room for everyone. To quote an ancient book:
“Many are called but few are chosen.”
At the Curtis Institute of Music, one of the best in the world (if not THE best), the admission rate is a generous 4%. And who knows what percentage of graduates will go on to the big stage and have a sustainable career?
By the way, all the students at Curtis are learning and learning and learning, before they audition to get that job at the New York Philharmonic for which they have to compete with hundreds of equally talented and passionate applicants who all believe they deserve a shot.
TAKING ADVANTAGE
If you’re a new voice actor you may not like what you’re hearing, but I’m not one of those people who is trying to sell you a dream so I can make some money off of you. In my book, that’s unethical. That’s taking advantage of people.
Now, back to my colleague who wrote:
“I was aware of VDC, but was using them to get my bearings and learn how to do this job before sinking thousands into demos.”
Her priorities are where they need to be: get your bearings first before investing money in things like demos. However, I don’t like the words:
“sinking thousands into demos.”
Does that sound positive or negative to you? When you sink, you literally go under, and you may drown… in debt.
Why didn’t this person say “investing thousands into demos”?
The words we unconsciously choose, reveal a lot about a person’s mindset and attitude.
INVESTING IN A CAREER
My wife, who -as you may know- is a professional flutist and piano teacher, was ready for a new instrument. A quality instrument makes the job easier, and if you advertise yourself as a pro, people don’t expect you to show up with a 500 dollar beginner flute.
In fact, my wife’s new flute was hand-crafted from pure gold, and made to fit her fingers. It cost as much money as a nice car, but it’s even more valuable because there is no instrument like it.
So, whenever I hear aspiring voice overs complain about the cost of being in business, I have to laugh. Have they looked at the cost of tuition at a reputable university? And at the debt people are left with when they graduate?
Now compare that to the cost of setting up a simple voice over home studio, and buying a mic, a preamp, a headset, and getting some coaching and doing a few seminars.
Before you say that getting started in voice overs is expensive, ask yourself: compared to what? I’m not saying you should do this on a shoestring budget, but since I started it has become a lot cheaper.
POWER OF PERCEPTION
And are you really sinking thousands into a demo if that’s what helps you book job after job after job?
In every profession there is a price to entry. My contractor had to buy a new van and replace all his power tools. You don’t want to know how much he spent. He only did it because these things will pay for themselves many times over…
…but not if he’d be selling his services at rock bottom rates. He knows he has to run a for-profit business, otherwise he will sink into a sea of his own making. He also knows about the power of perception. He knows that low rates create the expectation of low quality, and that clients who nickel and dime are the most demanding and difficult to deal with.
Now, be honest. When you take a step back, is all of this news to you? Do you think I’m this nasty party pooper trying to rain on your voice over parade?
If that were true, you are the VICTIM and that makes me the PROBLEM.
Remember the last paragraph this new voice over wrote?
“I’m reminded by this of Carin Gilfry’s comments on the podcast episode about Fiverr, and how gatekeepers aren’t doing the industry any favours by demonizing people who are using some of the less-than-top-notch platforms.”
I think she’s talking about that one podcast Carin and Jamie Muffet recorded after I wrote about what Carin Gilfry had said publicly about Fiverr at VO Atlanta. In my opinion (and I stress OPINION) I thought Carin, as the VP of NAVA (the National Association of Voice Actors), was cozying up too much to Fiverr, something she later explained in the podcast, was not the case or at least not her intention.
Since this was all started by me, I hope you’ll forgive me that I take the above comments personally.
So, three things: “gatekeepers,” “demonizing,” and “not doing the industry any favors.”
WATCHING THE GATES
A gatekeeper is like a bouncer. He or she controls access to something, in this case I assume she means access to the entire voice over industry, whatever that means.
I didn’t realize I was this powerful!
In fact, I didn’t know there were any gates in this industry apart from lack of talent, lack of training, lack of connections, and a lack of financial resources. But those are all things I have no control over.
As you are reading these words, I have no control over how they will land. That’s on you, not on me.
If you ask me, the Pay to Plays are the real gatekeepers because if you don’t pay, you won’t play. And in some cases, the more you pay, the more you get to play.
Now, when you demonize someone, you characterize them as evil or wicked, whether or not they actually are. When you use strong language like that, you better come up with solid proof to back it up. And if you can’t, you’re actually vilifying the “gatekeeper” you’re accusing of demonizing others.
And lastly, the phrase “doing the industry any favours.” The trouble with vague language is that it can mean different things to different people. I take it to mean: making a positive contribution to our field of work and my community.
Listen, I don’t think we’re doing anyone any favors by not telling newcomers about the pitfalls, the dangers, and the difficulties that lie ahead. There are too many people painting a positive get-rich-quick picture, and they all want one thing: Your hard-earned money. They all have something to sell and something to gain.
WHAT DO I ACTUALLY WANT
You may not agree with how I see the voice over industry (I don’t even like the word “industry”), and you may not like the way I write or speak about certain people or companies. But ask yourself:
“What’s my motive? What does Paul have to gain? What does he want from me?”
Am I trying to scare you so I can exploit your fear and inexperience to sell you my book, my products (that I don’t have), or my coaching/demo production services? Have I ever asked you for money? Do I want you to sign up for some kind of program or conference that promises to give you the edge in whatever?
Am I hoping to boost my reputation by saying not so nice things about the VP of NAVA, or the CEO of VDC? If that were the case, it totally backfired since some people seem to think I am demonizing colleagues that are very well liked, and who do amazing work for our community (colleagues like Carin, for instance).
Or am I simply a European attention seeker in the USA who has failed in his profession and is fueled by bitterness and resentment, or who is trying to discourage people who he sees as competition?
Believe me, I have heard it all.
DEBUNKING THE NONSENSE
To begin with the last theory: Paul, the person who craves attention. This may surprise you, but at heart I am a shy introvert who would rather operate in the quietude of his secluded Vermont studio. I love what I do for a living. Life is sweet instead of bitter, and all the things I set out to do professionally, I have done with no regrets (even risking my own life in the process).
I don’t believe in getting a leg up by putting other people down. In fact, I recently started the Goodmouth Mondays initiative, aimed at lifting unsung heroes in our community up by praising them in public.
And frankly, I don’t care about a thing like reputation. That’s only important to those with an ego the size of Texas. When I nearly died of a stroke while recording in my studio, what good was a reputation to me?
I don’t need your admiration or your money to feel good about myself. I may not be a millionaire, but my life is rich in so many ways. I have enough, and I am enough.
Most people who come to me for coaching I turn down, or they bail out once they read my terms and conditions which clearly state that I cannot and will not guarantee any results.
If you let me I can help you become a better driver, but once you’re on the road, you are on your own.
MY TRUE MOTIVATION
So, if those are not the reasons for sticking my neck out, what exactly drives me to be such a nasty, demonizing gatekeeper who likes to alienate new talent, berating them for using VDC or Fiverr?
Let me ask you this:
If you were the smart CEO of a company and you had to select people for your management team, would you only pick people who agree with you? In other words: YES-men and women?
Or would you welcome a diversity of opinions? Would you welcome people who have the guts to challenge you and make you think? People who are not afraid to find the flaws and point out the weaknesses, not to tear the plan down, but to make it stronger?
Yes, those people may seem a pain in the neck at first, but they are not out to destroy your dreams, but to wake you up. They are there to tell you that some emperors are not wearing any clothes and that what sounds too good to be true, is probably…. too good to be true.
Well, one of those pesky people would be me. Not because I’m naturally nasty, but because I can’t stand it when impressionable people are being sold a pipe dream, making them do more work for less money. To me, rates reflect respect. It’s how what we do as voice overs is valued. And when that respect is tossed aside and our work is devalued, I feel offended.
Offended by cheap clients, and by my colleagues who defend these rates saying “It’s a free market.” I want everyone to make at least a living wage in this country, preferably a whole lot more.
Go ahead: hate me for that.
EMPOWERING PEOPLE
I stick my neck out not to be a pain, but to empower people. Not to attack them, but to strengthen them against the attacks from the predatorial pricks that think you don’t deserve to be paid a fair fee.
Now, do I believe I have all the answers and that I always speak the truth?
No! I’ve never claimed to share THE truth with you. What can be true today, may be outdated tomorrow. Look at how fast AI is developing.
I am a flawed human being who has lost part of his brain thanks to a stroke. Even though I may come across as someone who knows it all, I really don’t, but like you I am searching for answers and I make you part of my search if you let me.
What I do, is share my subjective opinion based on my life, my experience, and my expertise. I don’t ask you to agree with me. All I ask of you is to give what I have to say some careful consideration and then make up your own mind.
FINDING BETTER PAYING JOBS
Our colleague on FB ends with:
“I don’t want to be working at the bottom forever, I hope to move up quickly to better paying jobs on more reputable platforms.”
To be honest, I don’t know who this person is or how she sounds, professionally speaking, but if you want to move up, you need to surround yourself with people who are better than you are and who charge more than you do.
Low paying jobs don’t challenge you to deliver value for money because there’s barely any money involved. If you need experience, read to kids with cancer or senior citizens. It will enrich their life and yours in ways you never thought possible, and, they can be a tough audience. If you don’t believe me, ask someone working in a children’s hospital or at a nursing home.
You’ll never feel more appreciated in your life!
If what you have to offer is of high quality, don’t you deserve more than beer money? If you need to prove to the IRS that you’re running a professional business instead of engaging in a hobby, shouldn’t you put the bar a bit higher?
I know this was a long sermon, and I apologize. But as the son of a minister, I can blame my father 😉
Thanks for listening, and thank you for your understanding.
As always, all comments are welcome but anonymous contributions from people hiding behind fake identities will be deleted. You may hold me accountable as much as you like, but it goes both ways.
I saw the post you’re speaking of. Her original post was encouraging new people stating that once she landed that first gig on VDC and got a great review, the flood gates were opened. She went on from there stating, “you can do it too.”
Admittedly, I did the VDC thing for a couple of years. I quit handing cash over to them (subscription fees) a few years ago as I don’t like what they stand for. The 20% fee from every job was the last straw (on top of a pile of many, many straws).
I still have their free account and get the occasional “public invite.” I generally do not respond as after fees, the rates are just too low.
Just yesterday I got a “private invite” for public facing TTS. In other words, AI for indiscriminate use in perpetuity. No thanks!
For newbies … “You don’t know what you don’t know.” Heed the advice of those who’ve gone before you. A $500 subscription fee is better spent on coaching, and puts a nice dent in demo production costs!
Thanks for sharing your experience, Debra. I’m sure there are plenty of others who feel the same way about VDC. Yes, they take a 20% fee and charge you for their SurePay system as well. Factor in the annual subscription fee and the fact that they list jobs for less while pocketing the difference between what the client pays and what you get… How many layers of dipping are we at? Scoundrels!
Thank you, Paul. I read it all.
For a guy who says he lost part of his brain…you still seem to be doing quite well with what’s still there!
Keep bein’ a “demon”. Speaking from my own experiences, I’ve had my share of “demons”: parents saying, “Don’t get so close to the fire.” “Get down out of that tree.” “You’re not ready to swim out so far.” “Never run out into that street without looking.” (and don’t get us started on school!) I imagine all of us could come up with our own lists.
Yeah, some might be barking commands out of ego or meanness. But my view has evolved over time, especially after becoming a parent. I’m thinking it’s more likely they were trying to steer me clear of something they knew could cause me harm, based on their own life experiences.
That, good sir, is how I see your “demonizing”. I doubt you’re in need of a exorcist.
Thank you for reading all of my rant, Rowell! Writing these blogs is what keeps my brain functioning, at least that’s what I tell myself. What you don’t use, you lose. You’re right: I’m not in need of an exorcist, although some of the comments I reference in the article, have been haunting me.
Paul,
I consider you a friend, but….
TL:DR
I got as far as the point where you were unwilling to use the word BIBLE, then quit reading. Even a convert to the Jewish religion might be able to cough up at least “Christian Bible” rather than “ancient book”.
We’re not demonizing newbies…we’re enticing them, wooing them, and practically dragging them into VO with the ever-growing cadre of “COACHES”; coaches who are only too eager to extol the virtues of VO as long as newbies pay for their so-called expertise.
CourVO
I ALWAYS appreciate and value your feedback, Dave. Being a blogger yourself you know that we have many choices to make, and that regardless of what we pick, we may not make everybody happy. Yes, I could have and perhaps should have mentioned the Bible…. just so you would continue reading the rest of the story. At the same time this quote is so well known that I think most people will know it is from the Good Book.
Especially since COVID, I feel VO has become more attractive to people who found a way to work from home that required only a small upfront investment. And yes, there are tons of “coaches” who are meeting a need with greed. But let’s not forget that there are still teachers in our community who have tons of integrity and who are giving so much to so many. It’s not all bad.
Paul,
You haven’t lost as much brain as you thought. It seems sharper then ever. You totally explained the feeling many of us in “The Business” have about the P2P’s and the hucksters who want your money and have no interest in someone’s success. The power in our industry is the Professional community that works together to rise the tide for all the boats. It is in the interest of the entire VO community to listen to the voices of experience who understand there is no competition involved in the hiring of voice talent. There is work for everyone qualified to do it. We are all snowflakes, completely unique. What makes someone qualified to do it is years of study, coaching, the honest recognition of your own potential and trust in the people who have succeeded, guiding you. Freelance Voice work is a profession, not an avocation. You also nailed with the P2P’s. When was the last time you got any feedback from a P2P? like.. never. Ok, the feedback they give you is for another 6K for another years membership.
Of course the people who fall for the false P2P promises do so freely, misguided by willful ignorance. No one’s forcing them to fork over lots of money. But when people are hungry and you offer what seems like a decent meal…
Great reply, Dan!
To get rid of something bad, a big crowd needs to leave.
The things that are actually okay with VDC… is their blog where they post technical advice, and their podcast, and videos, etc… But then if you watch them, you still make them popular.
I have read and listened to many of their stuffs.
But I was glad you warned about their terms and conditions recently.
As you often say you are stating your ‘OPINION’; and it’s true that we can’t agree 100% to everything. But I think the alerts and warnings are worth it.
After that, I’ve realized that on a few other websites, they too have the same kind of terms and conditions, that do not really empower VO artists.
I would like to ask: What’s your opinion on working on sites like fiverr but not using low rates?
Thanks for chiming in, Gianni. VDC’s blogs and vids are examples of smart content marketing. I’ve heard and seen some valuable episodes, but to me, they’re an example of lipstick on a pig. The problem with FIVERR is that you have to start at the bottom collecting positive ratings by working for ultra low rates before you can move up. The people who tell us “you can set your own rates on Fiverr” forget to say that. So, you are still supporting bargain basement compensation teaching clients they can get much more for way less.
After reading this response, the author of the Facebook post wrote the following:
Wow. I did not at any point when I wrote this post think it would elicit a response from you, Paul. And certainly not an entire blog post making an example of me. As a self-declared novice, I have no such platform of my own to post my response, so bear with me if this gets long.
This is clearly not how I want to introduce myself to the VO community. I love so far what I have seen here – very supportive peers helping each other, despite the fact that so many of us are vying for exactly the same gigs. I was happily surprised at how *not* cut-throat it is. It seems the perfect place to “surround yourself with people who are better than you are and who charge more than you do”, as you suggest.
You ask:
“Are we demonizing and alienating people who choose to find jobs at voices dot com (VDC) or Fiverr?”
Having read your article in its entirety, I don’t feel either demonized or alienated. Congratulations on a well-written essay.
But my original post wasn’t written about you. It was written about someone who called me a bot, shill and propagandist. Did they make me feel alienated?
Yes.
To some of the other points in your article:
Your suggestion that failure is a bad teacher goes against everything I have ever learned or been taught; as an engineer, as an entrepreneur, and as a stage actor. I can’t imagine that the VO world is so drastically different that the same rules don’t apply.
Every time I don’t get shortlisted for a job, I learn something. Everytime I get shortlisted but not booked, I learn something. When I first signed up for the site-which-shall-not-be-named (SWSNBN), i auditioned for every single gig that i qualified for (and you qualify for *all* of the ones that are listed the day you sign up). Even only 6 weeks in, I already have a much better idea of which jobs are more likely to get me shortlisted, and where my voice is more likely to “fit” in the market in the long term.
Could a great coach do all this, faster? Probably.
Ironically, one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned from all this FAILURE is that I need to charge MORE. Because I now fully realize that, if this is something I want to do as more than just as a hobby, the booking:audition ratio is so low that it doesn’t make sense to waste time auditioning for low-paying gigs.
I did enough research before jumping in here that I knew about the SWSNBN’s reputation, yes. But I also knew about the other dark side of the industry that you allude to: the selling of dreams to starry eyed neophytes, including months or years of coaching to get you ready to record a demo, when you really don’t have what it takes to make it. I’m thrilled to hear you don’t fall into that camp, but it’s incredibly hard when you’re starting out to know where to find people like you who are unwilling to take their hard-earned money unless it’s warranted.
It seemed prudent to me to spend a small amount to see if *anyone* would hire me before considering a larger “investment”. Yes, I’m using the word “investment” here – I do realize that demos are an investment in your business. But only if there’s a chance of an ROI. Otherwise, I’m very much “sinking” money into a boat that’s going down.
There’s a book that’s very popular in entrepreneurial circles by Rob Fitzpatrick called “The Mom Test”. The gist is that business ideas all sound like winners based on your mom’s reaction to them – she loves you and thinks everything you do is amazing. But in the real world, never invest significant time and money into a venture until you know that people are willing to pay for it. Pre-selling your product based on a slapped-together prototype is commonly held as the best way to validate a business idea before investing.
As encouraging, rewarding and experience-building as reading aloud to kids with cancer and seniors is, it sure doesn’t replace the validation you get when someone agrees to pay you GVAA rates and leaves you a 5-star review and asks you to work with them again on another project.
Consider the SWSNBN my “mom test”.
I appreciate your efforts to protect me against predatorial pricks who think I don’t deserve to be paid a fair fee. Keep pushing to educate me on why GVAA rates are important. Maybe try to find ways to educate the clients, not just the talent.
Keep telling me about pitfalls. Remind me that a $100 gig for 5 minutes of audio is less than minimum wage when you had to submit 100 auditions to get it and they each took 10 minutes to grt together and submit. Remind me that cheap clients are always the most pedantic and annoying, and always are more hassle than they’re worth in the end.
If you think feedback is more useful than failure, feel free to reach out and offer to listen to me and give me an honest critique of my work, for a fair fee of course. Tell me that I could probably use a couple months training and make a professional demo, or that I should move on and not even waste my time on bottom feeder jobs.
The truth is that I know there are a LOT of way more experienced talent than me on the SWSNBN, and other similar platforms. If the sin is being “complicit” in supporting these platforms, it feels like the cause would be much better served by focusing on them rather than lil’ ol’ me. Trust me, the SWSNBN is making way more money off of them.
You can perhaps see how it feels like I’m just an easy target. Someone makes an example of me, and they haven’t burned any bridges. Point a finger at the big names performing under aliases, and you may have just killed your chance at getting in with a casting director they’re close with.
I agree that diversity of thought is indeed important. I appreciate your viewpoint, Paul. I thought perhaps, with more context, you could appreciate mine.
And here is my reaction:
Hi Anna, Thank you for being my inspiration! I’m sure all of us would appreciate and understand each other more if we had more context, but I had to work with what you presented in your post (just like all the other people who responded to your contribution).
As you have seen, I used your post not to single you out (you were not even named in my blog), but to make more general points about what I see as common misconceptions and beginner mistakes. I can only write about them because I’ve made these mistakes myself many times over and, like you, I’m still learning. In fact, next month I’ll be teaching a webinar about my biggest blunders.
One of the big problems with trying to learn from things like unsuccessful auditions, is that newcomers don’t know what they don’t know, so they cannot pull themselves up and bad habits will form. My musician wife sees this all the time with self-taught students. It’s much faster and more efficient to learn things the right way, than trying to reinvent the wheel on your own while leaving bad impressions.
Yes, it’s possible to pick up pointers by watching some vids, listening to podcasts, and by reading a few books. However, that will never make one an accomplished voice over. Just like learning how to drive a car, learning VO has to have a strong experiential component.
Learning from failure only works when we understand what went wrong, it works when we know how to fix it, and when we take the time to learn and practice the correct behavior. After my stroke I had to relearn how to walk and talk, so I know a little bit about when our body and mind are failing us. I’m telling you: I wouldn’t be where I am today, had it not been for my expert therapists.
I’ve been coaching students for years, and many of them don’t recognize even basic mistakes, and you can’t change what you’re not aware of. The people who evaluate these poor auditions will never reach out to give feedback. It’s not their job, and P2P’s are just as useless. So, using a self-taught method will only take you to the limits of your own incompetence.
Using a P2P to test if anyone would hire you (without having much experience and training), is like hoping to win a marathon where thousands of people are running to finish first, with little or no preparation. What a waste of time, money, and energy! And if you’ve ever watched the show Shark Tank, you probably know that ill-conceived slapped-together prototypes consistently fail to wow the judges.
And by the way, if you can captivate kids in pain with cancer as well as seniors, I bet that you can captivate those clients who are willing to pay you GVAA rates and give you return business. A 5-star review may lift you up, but telling a story to a child in a hospital bed will lift them up. Clients don’t care how you feel, but they do care about how you make THEM feel.
I appreciate your openness to my message very much. You wrote: “Keep pushing to educate me on why GVAA rates are important. Maybe try to find ways to educate the clients, not just the talent.”
I see it as part of my job (of OUR job) to educate clients. 80% of those who hire a VO at Voice123 have never hired a voice actor before, so they’re counting on our guidance. That’s why I’m happy that my blog is also popular among voice seekers, producers, and agents.
Your second suggestion that I should probably focus more on the P2P platforms than on people like lil’ ol’ you, is understandable, but my question is: why can’t it be both? The people in the VO community who know me, would be the first to tell you that I have a bit of a reputation when it comes to taking on online casting sites. And I think that’s an understatement.
But the only reason these sites can continue their unethical practices is because people like you (and thousands of others) keep them in business. The most effective way to entice P2P’s to change, is to hurt them financially because they only care about the bottom line. That’s why it makes sense for me to open up a debate with my colleagues first. They are the cork on which the P2P’s float.
One last thing: you said your original post wasn’t written about me. Well, you didn’t know me, but you also didn’t know that Carin’s Fiverr podcast which you referenced was in response to something I had written. Because of that I felt compelled to respond in a more personal way.
Maybe you wanted to introduce yourself to the VO community in a different way, and yet, this is how it happened. You were honest, open and vulnerable, and you wanted to share. I think that’s what we are all looking for and appreciate on these platforms. Thanks again for inspiring me to continue this dialogue. We’ll see where it lands, won’t we?
As a new VO, I’ve really enjoyed reading this blog, and I think you are obviously a very intelligent, successful VO with lots of helpful insight. However, I have personally found the last handful of posts have just been about dragging people’s opinions/questions/feelings, directly quoting them and writing witty responses behind the safety of a keyboard and it just feels… really negative. From what I’ve read, though, you might take pride in being a contrarian.
I would prefer to read inspiring and new ideas, not just cutting down of people you don’t agree with.
Again, I’m a new VO so it’s just my 2 cents, but also… maybe it’s an important 2 cents to give you an idea of what it looks like from the outside looking in without industry bias.
I welcome all kinds of feedback and different opinions, Andrea, but your words didn’t sit so well with me and I’ll tell you why.
You mentioned that “the last handful of posts have just been about dragging people’s opinions/questions/feelings, directly quoting them and writing witty responses behind the safety of a keyboard and it just feels… really negative.”
I take it this must include last week’s post in which I introduce Goodmouth Mondays, my post about jealousy and counting one’s blessings, and my post telling American talent what European voice seekers are looking for in terms of demos? Or are you talking about the article before that, in which I tell people how to become a speaker at a VO conference? All really negative stuff, I must admit.
Oh yes, all written from the safety of my keyboard. Perhaps I should pull up a desk in the middle of a highway and start blogging at the start of rush hour? I’ve been blogging for over twenty years and during that time I have been ridiculed, verbally attacked, and asked to “go back to where I came from,” even though I’m a US citizen. It’s come to the point where my wife has asked me not to speak up about controversial topics anymore, because she’s afraid of what the backlash might do to my heart rate. The last time my heart decided to race and skip a few beats, it sent a blood clot to my brain causing a stroke that almost killed me.
Yes… my keyboard is a very safe place for me.
But I have brought all of this upon myself because I just love being a contrarian, right? How well you don’t know me, Andrea!
For what it’s worth, whether we realize it or not, we all look at the world through our filters. It’s impossible not to be biased one way or the other. At least, that’s my opinion based on my understanding of human psychology. By definition, a blog is a reflection of the opinion of the author. It’s not a “both sides” account. It’s a personal account of my interpretation of what’s happening in my community.
Most of my readers don’t return week after week to read a neutral description or the stories of someone telling them how great everything is in voiceover la la land. There are some pretty alarming developments coming our way, and I tackle them head on. I speak up and say things other people are afraid to say. I stick my neck out and face the consequences. I must be a masochist!
If you don’t care for some of my posts, just skip them and read something you find more uplifting. But if I, as a blogger, don’t piss a few people off every now and then, I am not doing it right.
I hear you, Paul. I’m sorry to hear about the harsh backlash you’ve received for your blog. It sounds like people have said horrible things to you and that’s not okay. What I’m saying is not that—what I’m saying is simple my 2 cents, a critique in the same way you are allowed to critique here on your blog.
And you’re right, many of your posts are not negative and I do appreciate you tackling controversial issues and I definitely support you having opinions that don’t necessarily go with the positive happy go lucky lateeda flow—it’s very important and having discussion with differing opinions makes the world better.
If I may clarify, I’m speaking directly about this article, the article about envy, and all the stuff calling out Carin.
Every one of these, yes, had professional insight that gave me something to think about and many points I don’t disagree with—especially the article on envy.
Maybe my issue becomes when you drag people into it. Directly quoting people who have come to you, quoting people’s Facebook posts…? I think there is a way to tackle these topics without talking about the people who said them at all. Because once you do that it just feels more like a vent and gossip session and less like an article from a professional perspective.
And even though you are keeping their anonymity, it just feels icky (for lack of a better word) to me… from the perspective of your reader.
Hi Andrea, thank you for sharing your perspective and your feedback. To some, how I choose to frame a topic is icky, and to others it is authentic because I am quoting real people in real situations without distorting their words.
In a court of law as well as in journalism, first-person accounts carry most weight because they are not hearsay. They are the real thing. In my case it also shows that I don’t just write about people from my ivory tower. I give them an undistorted voice in my articles.
Now, I think the problem behind the problem has to do with me not asking permission to quote their words in my blog. Some people feel that this a way of stealing, and they want me to ask permission first. In journalism (and I’ve been a broadcast journalist for most of my life) you ask for permission if you are quoting someone by name and that name appears in print or on TV. When you subject your sources to that kind of exposure, it’s the right thing to do, to ask for people’s consent.
However, my situation is different. My sources are often anonymous because what they say is more important than who is saying it. It’s the topic I wish to delve into, and not the person that interests me.
Now, here’s what bothers me…
We live in an open society where people walk down a busy street talking about very private matters on a mobile phone for the whole world to hear. Some of us practically live our lives on social media, and the reason we love reality TV so much, has to do with us being able to watch private conversations and raw behavior.
Going back in history, the whole concept of Candid Camera was based on capturing people’s spontaneous, unedited responses to a silly situation.
In my experience as a journalist breaking news stories, I can tell you that -once people are aware their words and actions are being recorded and published- they become disingenuous and they start editing themselves and you’ll only hear what they think is socially acceptable. That’s a killer if you, as a reporter, think you have an obligation to tell the truth.
I may not be a reporter in this blog, but I certainly report and comment on my community. I even break news stories from time to time. Quite often, news is something people aren’t ready to tell, but there’s a public interest to expose it anyway.
So, I find it odd that, on one hand people are fine sharing intimate details of their lives on Facebook, including their date of birth and where their kids go to school without putting up any of the restrictions Facebook allows you to put up… and on the other hand they don’t like it when I take something from what they posted in the public domain, and use it as inspiration for my blog without their name even being attached.
They’ll gladly put a picture of themselves holding a beer in a bikini on Instagram, for the whole world to see, but when I use their words without even identifying them, I am the bad guy.
By the way, what I think is really behind it was that in my article I called the people out who said I was demonizing, discouraging, and ostracizing newbies. One even said: “Hater will be haters,” as if I hate people who are just starting out. I was called a gatekeeper as if I was preventing people from entering the business.
I think that -as long as it is flattering- people have no problem with me quoting them. But as soon as I start becoming a bit more critical, they suddenly object.
The strange thing is that for the past twenty years I have done nothing but warning and educating newcomers so they wouldn’t fall for get rich quick schemes and unscrupulous people who take advantage of naive hopefuls with some cash to burn.
So, rather than apologizing to me for all the unwarranted name calling, I am labeled as the bad guy who makes people feel unsafe on social media because he may steal the words you posted publicly.
Yes, it makes total sense to me now.
An ironic response: For somebody who wants others to take feedback, it seems you are having a hard time taking any at all.
Just as you have said to me “just scroll past the ones you don’t want to read.” Can you not do that on Facebook? Let people say their noise and let it goooo. Especially people younger, newer, etc.
If your goal is really to educate, why not comment “Hey soandso, I sent you a dm with some insight on this topic I’d love to discuss with you.” And have an actual conversation?
My problem with the quoting, is not about the lack of permission: it’s about the maturity to let everyone have their own process. I don’t have any interest in reading an entire novel-length post on how you, an experienced professional, bested a newbie online. That’s what these quotey posts (and the Instagram post you just made about me) say to me: “look everyone, how I bested this person.” It’s not cute. Your mission of education and enlightenment is getting tangled up in your need to prove you’re right.
Sure, maybe I’m getting caught in my own trap here by not just scrolling past your posts. And you are free free free to say whatever you want on your own blog and socials, of course. Just saying how it comes across to me. Take it or leave it (though it seems you’ll leave it).
Nothing you have said here or in any of your posts has been wrong. Of course you can technically quote anyone you want while keeping them anonymous. But is that all there is? Being right? Is that your driving force? Logic, law and freedom of expression are one thing, if that’s the hill you want to die on and be known for. However, these values don’t necessarily align with mutual collegiate respect.
At the end of the day, though, you’re right…again. I can simply not read your blog and let you have your process. TTFN.
At the end of the day I think both of us want to be understood. My way of processing feedback is to take it in, let it percolate, and to formulate a response to explain where I’m coming from.
I don’t like to look at things from a perspective of I am right and the other person is wrong. Different people do different things for different reasons. There are different ways of doing things that can both lead to a positive result. A phrase I use time and again is: “I don’t want and need people to agree with me. I want them to think about what I am saying, and make up their own minds.” That’s very different from trying to best a newbie. It’s not a competition. I really don’t care about being the best, and I’m sorry if I come across as someone who has this need to be number one, or to outsmart a beginner.
One of my goals is to educate the people in my community and there are different ways of doing that. When I answer one person in one direct message, that reaches only one person. But when I take what that one person has written as inspiration for a blog post, I can reach thousands! By the way, I do have lots of one-on-one conversations with people you’ll never hear anything about. As a well known blogger, people know where to find me, and I enjoy these conversations very much. Some even say I should charge for what usually ends up being a mini coaching session.
As you said, everyone should have their own process, and this is mine. It’s not perfect (I am very much aware of that), but it’s the best I can do with what’s available to me, physically and mentally.
I love your insights and honesty. Ever since I read your book “Making Money in your PJ’s”, I was enlightened to the fact that VO isn’t easy. I appreciated the fact that you didn’t make it smelling like roses. It was the truth that all VO Newbies should hear. it’s about the dirt, grind and disappoints many of us have to endure….and if we still rise up out of the mud with the love of VO in our hearts, then it was all worth it !
Thanks for reading my blog and my book, Ali. I try to paint a realistic picture of what it’s like to try to make a living as a European VO in the USA. Sometimes I question whether or not it was all worth it, or whether I should have become a psychologist and help people get their lives back together. But then I get one of those fun jobs I never expected to land, and I am in love with what I’m doing. There are many ways in which we can contribute to the world, and being a voice over is one of them.